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There have been many raising questions as to how we can best love and reflect Christ to those who struggle in the area of gender and sexuality. Author Rev. Dr. Andreades joins us to give a brief overview of his work in mentoring people who are wrestling with gender dysphoria, homosexual desires, body dysmorphia, and more.

This is part 2 of a series where we’ll discuss what a biblical and nuanced approach to helping people through gender struggles can look like. We hope to impart knowledge and encouragement as we explore this sensitive matter.

Want to explore the work of Rev. Dr. Andreades? You can see his writings at https://affirminggender.com/

Tap here to listen to episode 1 of this series in Veritas Vox episode 152.

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode.

Marlin Detweiler:
Hello again and welcome to another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. Today we have Sam Andreas with us for a second episode in discussions about his ministry, Affirming Gender and how he, as a man of God, an ordained pastor has chosen to minister to people with issues that fall under the category of things that are different than a traditional understanding of gender. Sam, welcome.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Hi. Great to be here again.

Marlin Detweiler:
Okay, so we ended the last episode with a statement of asking you what you thought of, “Anyone can be cured.” And naturally, I expected you would do this. You talked about healing and not cure. Let's unpack that a little bit more. What is it that you see as a very real possibility?

What is your hope for people that you minister to and deal with? And how do you go about that?

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yeah. Thank you. One of the points of the book is to give stories about how this happens. And so I have a number of stories in the book that show people how they move from a committed trans ideology, a committed trans lifestyle into a place where they are reconciled with their bodies and have a vision for their genders, how that looks and what goes into it.

That's really the value of the book. That's what I'm trying to do. And I guess there are two parts, and there are two first parts of the book kind of explain this. The first part, to bring someone to a healed place, to a renewed place, is having them become reconciled with their body, to understand where our body shame comes from.

According to the scriptures and how it's addressed in Jesus Christ. And so that's part one. But people can be reconciled with their bodies, but they also need a renewed vision of gender. What do the scriptures tell us about what it is to be a man? What is the glory of being a woman?

And these things are very important for us. And a challenge too, because if we're people who are trying to help loved ones in these situations, we need to grow in our genders also.

Marlin Detweiler:
So there were a couple examples in the book that we're referring to, Across the Kitchen Table. We talked a bit about that in our last episode together. You mentioned Gideon and you mentioned a long fingered friend. Are those two stories that would help us understand some of the biblical and philosophical approaches you've taken in the ministry?

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Those are good choices, because they highlight how in the book there are both biblical examples. And there are examples from today that I give. And the Gideon example is a great way to see that God, often when he shows up in someone's life, he has the job of redefining their identity, of contradicting the way that they see themselves and telling them they're something else.

So I go through the conversation that God has with Gideon, which is really about re-identifying him, helping him see that the way that he sees himself isn't actually the way that he is, the way that God has made him or what God wants him to be. And that's a big part of Gideon coming to his calling in life. So that's one example. And people are familiar with the Gideon story.

Marlin Detweiler:
Give us a brief re-familiarization, if you would.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Sure, sure. Well, you remember, this is from the book of Judges, that we're talking about. And it. When Gideon first meets the divine through an angel, he comes and sits by him underneath the terebinth tree in Ophrah. And Gideon is kind of covertly threshing his family's wheat in a wine press. And he's not doing it openly because he's hiding from the Midianites.

These roving bands that would come up and take what they wanted. And so, rather than confronting them, Gideon is hiding. So you don't see him starting out as the example of bravery. But the angel begins by addressing him just as that. He says, O mighty man of valor. And so the angel is, as God's voice is trying to help Gideon to know that he's different than how he sees himself.

And that ensues this argument about who Gideon really is. And the angel essentially says, I know that you see yourself as weak, but you are actually a man of great might. Gideon takes a lot of convincing, in which God patiently engages, and it changes the course of his life. He becomes the hero that he was meant to be.

Marlin Detweiler:
And then the story of the long fingered friend. Oh, I'm calling it that. I know you know what I'm talking about, Hal. Tell us about that, and then tell us how these stories help us understand what can be that may not yet be realized.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yeah. So, you know, I use different names in the book, but I called this guy Ralph. He was a gender dysphoric man that I was counseling with, and he had feelings about his body that we discussed and got to. I really enjoyed getting to know this guy. He was a sensitive young man, musically inclined.

And as we spoke, he got more and more honest about the way that he was looking at his body. And at a particularly vulnerable moment, he simply held out his hands, palms down. And as we were looking together at these long, graceful fingers and these wrists, he just said it. He said, I hate these hands. These are girls hands.

And I remember I took his hands in mine and I just said to him, no, Ralph, these are man's hands, and you should take up the piano. So I think that about piano players like, kind of kill for these long fingers. That is, you know, but that was kind of an important moment for him. It helped him take a step and turning back to the way that God viewed his body, and how he looks on it and love, regardless with what is wrong with it or what we think is wrong with it.

Marlin Detweiler:
What role does shame play in the people that you are dealing with?

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yeah, that's the name of the game. And that's why the first kind of part of the book I show where that shame comes from. It actually comes from our first parents and their experience when they turn away from God and God's view of who they are. Immediately, the first thing that happens to them is shame about their bodies.

And so that shame drives us in ways. And for some of us, it's debilitating. And that's at the heart of gender dysphoria, is that shame.

Marlin Detweiler:
I have watched it generally from a distance, the playing out of some problems in the denomination at the church denomination of both you and I are part of the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America. Several years ago, a general assembly, there was an initiative by a pastor who I believe, it's accurate to say, struggles with same sex attraction.

And he was seeking to do some things within the church at the national meeting of the church, the meeting where all the denomination gets together to make the church operate differently. My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong because I don't want to be wrong about this, on a recording especially, is it somehow that initiative was connected also to a person who wrote a book called Single Gay Christian.

Now, what I'm getting at here is I read that book because I wanted to hear the person whose perspective was different than mine or than what I thought I believed, and he –

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
So what did you think of the book?

Marlin Detweiler:
Well, he went to great states to defend that he tried and tried and tried to deal with his same sex attraction issue. And from how I understood the book, came to conclude that he had to come to grips with the fact that this wasn't going away and it wasn't going to allow him to do those things that typical heterosexual males do.

Now, that was the experience that I heard him articulate in the book. I also have an example of somebody that I know personally and have interacted with quite a bit over decades, who struggles with same sex attraction, and found himself very freed up with the statement from somebody that he had gotten counsel with that simply said those issues for you will never completely go away any more than lust for another woman might never go away.

For a man who doesn't struggle with same sex attraction issues. But that doesn't mean that all is lost. Now, I've got a lot of different directions here. Take it where you want to, but help us understand what you believe is right and good. From a biblical standpoint, with how we can expect, individually and culturally, that we should be dealing with these issues of gender confusion.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yes. Well, it's a good analogy. And I think you kind of went in the right direction there in terms of responding to the idea that, wow, this is never going to change for me. First of all, that's a statement of a great, great deficit of faith, that God could never make us different than we are.

That doesn't mean that he's just going to snap his fingers all the time. And overnight, we're going to be new people. But there's a tremendous promise in the gospel of transformation that's just a promise about us. And in regard to all of our sins. So, I mean, think about if I wrote a book, you know, as a man and said, you know, because at times struggle with temptations, physical temptations for someone who's not my wife, like, that means I'm, you know, this is my identity.

That would be a ridiculous book. But it would also be a great failure in trusting in the gospel and believing what Jesus said. You know, there's a place in the Corinthians where Paul's writing the Corinthians. He lists all these sins, and then he says, such were some of you, directing us to understand that the first thing we have to realize is this is not our identity.

This is not part of who we are. And I talk about how James talks about avoiding temptation. In the book, I kind of go through James's model. He has this pregnancy model of temptation and how we avoid that. The first thing we have to do is not identify with it. It's not us. And the fellow who wrote this book wants to say, this is me.

Now, it doesn't mean that he's not going to have struggles in his life. And, you know, our sexuality is complex. It goes deep and there are deep issues of gender that it brings up and that need to be addressed and can be addressed over time. But people, I mean, in my experience, helping folks, helping guys who struggle with same sex attraction, if they identify, as soon as they identify it, they're lost.

Like, they're not going to be able to withstand temptation. As soon as we identify with our sin, you know, that's the end of the story.

Marlin Detweiler:
What do you mean by identify with our sin.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
To say, you know, this is how it's always going to be. This is who I am, okay? This is part of my identity.

Marlin Detweiler:
Can I get an identity that is not, it is not. Well, I'll let you answer, conceding. What about our identity, then?

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Well, Jesus—and the New Testament says that, you know—Paul says it in 2 Corinthians 5, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation." And we—you know, Paul talks about the old man having been crucified. We need to understand our flesh has been crucified, and that whenever something comes up in us that takes us opposite to what God says is good for us, that’s not part of us anymore.

And we do have the power to have victory over that. Doesn't mean it's not a struggle, doesn't mean it's not a big fight sometimes. But God has an answer for us with that—with every temptation. So that’s what I mean. We have to identify with Christ. In Christ, this is not who I am. Very important to be able to say that.

And people who do come to a place of freedom—it doesn’t mean they’re never tempted; that’s a ridiculous standard to hold people up to—but it means they have victory over sins that used to dominate them.

Marlin Detweiler:
I don’t want to take this for granted because it’s somewhat assumed in our conversation. So let’s bring it out here. What do you say to the person—how do you work with the person who says, “I don’t see a problem here. I am attracted to people of the same sex sexually,” or “I’m gay. I am this,” and they want to say, “I believe that’s okay”?

Isn’t that—that’s really a battle that the church tends to shrink from today, and you’re not. How do you address that?

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Are we talking about someone who is a professed follower of Christ? Someone who is a believer, or not?

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
I—I don’t—I’m…

Marlin Detweiler:
Happy to talk about the other, but I think that for purposes of what we’re doing, we have to assume that. Because if we’re not willing to want to be done with our sin, then it’s pointless. So, yeah, I’m talking about a Christian—a follower of Christ.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yes. They’re at a disadvantage now because our culture is—according to Romans 1—under judgment. And so they’re being fed a lot of information that encourages them in the other direction. And you have a culture that’s approving.

The church, unfortunately, is not unaffected by that. And so you have churches that either just don’t want to deal with the issue, or don’t want to make waves—they want to keep up their membership. And so they want to be welcoming in a way that doesn’t call out what God says is a sin.

So we do have people at a disadvantage. And sometimes they just need to be shown: “This is not what God has for us. This is not the way that He says we should go.” And maybe that’s all they need, you know? Because they’re like, “Oh, okay. I realize what I thought was okay was not okay.”

But then you've got people who are more dug in and committed—and write these books about how this is okay. Not the particular book you mentioned, but…

There are these different categories. There are people who say, “Well, I’m this way, but I’m going to try to be celibate.” But then there are others who say, “No, this is part of God’s design.” And those people are not going to acknowledge the truth of Scripture.

Yeah, I’m saying if you have false prophets—if you have people who say, “I don’t accept what the Bible says about this. This is not God. I believe this is God’s will, this is God’s design—who I am and who I should be”—then we need to oppose them, of course, publicly.

And we need to pray for them. And pray that they can come to a place of repentance. And they do sometimes. You know, sometimes it's quiet. Unfortunately.

Marlin Detweiler:
You make a big point in the book Across the Kitchen Table to talk about relationship first—predominantly referring to parent and child—but I know you mean it broader than that.

Unpack that for us, because there tends to be a polarization of: “It’s completely wrong, and we need to speak out about it and it doesn’t matter how those people who struggle feel,” or, “We need to be completely accepting because that’s how they were made.”

But you don’t accept either of those things, and you start by relationship first.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yeah. So I love the way you put that, Marlin. I thought that was great. That’s true—you don’t want to go to either of those extremes.

So what I said was: in the kingdom of heaven, relationship preempts accomplishment. So, for example, Jesus is on his way to a certain—you know, a request has been made by the synagogue ruler for a healing, and he’s interrupted at times.

And you watch Jesus—he allows himself to be interrupted, for the sake of relationship.

You see—you see him do this. And so what I’ve kind of learned just in my own Christian life is that very much I want to get something done, and God might interrupt that with a relationship issue that needs to be addressed now.

And so I think that’s true in general—especially when you’re dealing with this polarizing issue, like you mentioned. It is very polarizing—it’s tearing families apart.

And so, you want to make sure that in addressing this issue, we need to prioritize the relationship. That means listening and hearing their story and making sure that we understand. Affirming that, “I’m with you in this. This is not a reason for me to reject you. You’re always going to bear the same relationship to me. And I want to walk with you in this. I want to understand. I want us to walk through this together.”

And that kind of attitude goes—it’s crucial to especially display at the beginning, for parents who are receiving this disclosure across the kitchen table.

But also, you know, as you go on, it's especially important to maintain that. And there are some great examples of someone like Ryan Haynes and his work. He wrote a book called The Gospel in the Gay Bars, in which he tells a story of how he befriended a trans friend, and how he walked with his friend who was very, very upfront about what he believed about what the friend was doing—that it wasn't what God wanted for him.

But the guy went on his way and had no one, you know, to visit him in the hospital after the operation. No one to take him home. Well, Ryan showed up and was his friend in the midst of that, and I was just holding him up as an example of, this is the way to do it, you know, because if we try to speak the truth without love, it's not very truthful. So we need both truth and love, as Ephesians four says, to grow, for one another.

Marlin Detweiler:
Very good. How would you describe the relationship between the therapist and counseling community and the church in the ideal? What would you say the roles are that help people best and most?

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
That's a great question. I think both have an important role to play. I value therapy for people when it's needed. Not always, not always needed, not always appropriate. But sometimes it really is. And if you have somebody who has experience, for example, in revisiting earlier trauma, and allowing—especially if that's a Christian therapist who can allow the Holy Spirit to minister and redefine that early difficulty, that early trauma—that's incredibly valuable for someone to be able to do that.

So I do value the work of the therapist, but I find that it doesn't replace the pastoral work that happens in the church, both through community and in the pastor's office. I find that, and I'm very clear with people. I mean, sometimes I direct people to counseling, but I've said I do pastoral counseling, and that's much more directive, because they need to know what the Scriptures say and how Jesus accomplishes this healing. But I also value what the therapist does. So I think they're both good things.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. I can envision it being a wonderful thing for a highly trained therapist who understands the word of God and its application to our lives, working very closely with the church. I wish there were more of both to bring things together where the need seems so great.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yes. Well, one of the things I do is sit on the board of the Restored Hope Network, and that is a consortium, a network of over 50 ministries across the United States that deal with these issues—with sexuality issues. And I can recommend them. I can vouch for them. These are solid ministries. People aren't aware of that a lot of times. But they're there, and they're there to help. And some of them are licensed counselors.

Marlin Detweiler:
Very good, very good. Well, maybe as we wind this episode down, you can talk a little bit about—there's a story that I'd love to hear you tell that was in the book. I'll call it the foster parents story.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Yes. In the book, I call them Stan and Mave. Just had a commitment to foster parenting, which is really difficult. And they had two sons of their own, but they went through it because they were committed to helping in this way. And once they'd been certified, they received one of these emergency phone calls for placement.

And there was an 11-year-old girl—we'll call her Jane—who had been institutionalized for her depression and self-harm. And she was just being released. She needed a home. Okay. Yeah. So they said sure—Stan and Mave—and so they were going to take this child. And then the caseworker says, oh, and by the way, he is trans. It's a girl that really is assuming a boy's identity.

And Stan is there on the phone, and he's like, wait a second. You know, we don't have the experience for helping this kind of person. And the caseworker begged, please, you know, no one else will take him because he is trans. And so right there on the phone, Stan stopped to pray. And all he could think of was that Jesus would not turn such a woman away.

So he said, okay, we'll do it. And the couple adopted Jane's gender-neutral chosen name, and she had a number of other problems that they helped her with. But little by little, as Jane experienced the love of this Christian household, she began to open up. Her other mental difficulties lessened, and her grades improved. And after a few months, Stan began to realize that the state-appointed counselor was pressing Jane to take on a transgender identity—as a male.

And they were demanding that Stan and Mave get her a binder. It's a chest binder. It's a harmful practice that they do. And insisting on her visiting this LGBTQ center. And then there was this one time, finally, on an appointment with an OB-GYN for help with Jane's menstruation, and Stan felt that they were not being straight with him about the medication she was about to receive.

She was actually being ushered into a life track that would lock her into the denial of her gender. And so they halted the visit, and they left. And on the long drive home, Stan just spoke from his heart to her about Christ. He explained the gospel, and he explained how Jesus had given his body to be mangled for her, and she was listening.

So that next Sunday in church, she repented and believed in Christ. And at that point, Jane's gender dysphoria dissipated. She wanted a new wardrobe that Mave was very pleased to deliver—dresses and skirts—write in her journal. And there was a deeper reality that was going on. Now, the state-supplied workers at that point—the social workers—were baffled that Jane was now a girl again, and that she didn't want the visit to support a male identity, but they could not deny what she said she now was.

So she went in this other direction. And a year later, when she was being placed for adoption, she had one requirement: that the family she would go to would be Christian believers. And last time I had contact with her, coming into her teens, she remained very much a Christian believer and very much a girl.

Marlin Detweiler:
Oh, that's wonderful. Well.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
There are some good stories in the book that help people see how these things happen.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. We face some very interesting, unforeseen, unexpected challenges as we run into gender issues culturally here in America. And at this point, it is 2025. It is astounding to think that we are where we are in some respects. And I love the fact that you have figured out how to cut through all that and to think lovingly and yet biblically about how we can address a world that we know to be a world fallen in sin and in need of redemption.

And that applies to gender confusion as well as people who don't suffer from that, because we are all sinners.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
That's right. Well, thank you. That's very kind.

Marlin Detweiler:
I appreciate the work that you do. For people who might be helped, you can find Sam—again, at AffirmingGender.com, the two main books that he's written that are very significant and I enjoyed immensely. One is called Engendered, the other Across the Kitchen Table. Both of them will help you immensely if you are dealing with, directly or with others, issues of gender confusion that don't square with how God made us. Thank you, Sam. Thank you.

Rev. Dr. Andreades:
Thanks so much. I enjoyed talking to you.

Marlin Detweiler:
And, folks, thank you for joining us on another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. We look forward to seeing you next time.