Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify | Watch the Video

While it used to be a cultural staple, most Americans today have abandoned keeping the Sabbath. What was the catalyst in abandoning a day of rest unto the Lord? What would it take to bring it back into society?

Jump to the 8:57 minute mark to go directly to our conversation topic, or play the entire episode from the beginning to get to know Rev. Terry L. Johnson and how he came to pastor at Independent Presbyterian Church in Savannah, Georgia.

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode.

Marlin Detweiler:
Hello again and welcome to another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. We're glad you're joining us today. We have with us the long time pastor of Independent Presbyterian Church in Savannah, Georgia, Terry Johnson. Terry, welcome.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Thank you.

Marlin Detweiler:
It is great to see you again. We have not had a lot of interaction over the years, but the audience might be interested to know that we met, I think, before either of us were married, which puts it back more than at least at this point, 45 years.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah, I believe that is correct.

Marlin Detweiler:
And Greg Gables, Miami area. Florida. Yes.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Right, right. I was down there as first an intern and then an assistant minister under Jim Baird.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yep. Very good. Well, tell us a little bit about yourself, your education, your family, your career as we get started here.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, I grew up in Southern California, went to L.A. city schools through high school, and then went to the University of Southern California, USC, for my undergraduate education.

Marlin Detweiler:
Played there during the O.J. Simpson years?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
And now, I watched OJ with a bunch of people packed into the family living room. And when he broke off a 64 yard run to defeat UCLA and USC went on to win the national championship in 67. But no, I was there 73 to 77, and those were great years. Two of those are part of the John McKay years.

And so we were in the Rose Bowl virtually every year and national championship running and so forth. And then, I graduated from USC and then went on to Trinity College in Bristol, England. I went there, having read GI Packers, knowing God and I was so moved by it and so impressed by it and knowing that he was a classical covenantal theologian and feeling very much the influence of dispensationalism in Southern California with Josh McDowell and John MacArthur and Talbot Seminary and you know, those kinds of influences that I thought it was wiser to go and get something more classically Protestant.

And so spent two years at Trinity College in Bristol, studying with Packer and then, to my surprise, Alec Mortier, J. Mortier wrote a number of Old Testament as well as New Testament commentaries. And he was in the spoken English with Packer was in written English. He was absolutely extraordinary as a lecturer and a preacher.

And those two together, the two most godly men I've ever known. I came back to the U.S., finished up with two years at Gordon Conwell, earned my master's of divinity, and in the whole process went from being a Baptist to being a Presbyterian, was convinced on church government and convinced on infant baptism.

So that pushed me out of the Baptist church. I joined the PCA and five years then, as an intern and then assistant minister at Grenada Presbyterian in Coral Gables, and then I've been here at Independent Presbyterian since I was 31. So that was not January of 19.

Marlin Detweiler:
Became a senior pastor at 31.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah. They didn't know what they were doing. Yeah. Yeah. Well.

Marlin Detweiler:
It apparently has worked out okay.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
It's worked out. We had that referred to as the Seven Years War. For seven years I was here. Congregations very divided. It's a I think the building that we meet in is the most impressive, the most beautiful Protestant house of worship in North America.

Marlin Detweiler:
It is gorgeous. Let me just say to the listener, if you're ever in Savannah over a Sunday, you will enjoy the worship and the esthetic of Independent Presbyterian.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah, it's a beautiful, plain style Protestant house of worship on a grand scale. You might be interested to know it's never referred to as a sanctuary in the historic document. It's a house of worship that would be more typical of low church Protestantism. The meetinghouse amongst the Puritans.

Marlin Detweiler:
What’s the objection to the term sanctuary?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, it's not a sacred space. It's a place where we meet to worship.

Marlin Detweiler:
Well, we're on the topic of interesting things. I got to ask you a question. It strikes me there's got to be a story here, because the term independent and Presbyterian is a little bit oxymoronic. How is the term independent to be understood?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, it absolutely is oxymoronic. And I don't hesitate to let the people know here. It's, you know, if you're Presbyterian by definition, there are presbyteries. If you don't have a presbytery, you're a Congregationalist or an independent. Right. And so it's independent but Presbyterian for historic reasons. I mean, at the local level, yes. We have a session where elders like elected by the people are confession.

Confession of faith is Westminster and it's larger and shorter Catechisms. Our ministers are all members of the Presbyterian. Yeah. So we are members of the Savannah River presbytery here. So in those three ways, we are a Presbyterian church. But really a more accurate description would be we're a Congregational church with Presbyterian ministers.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's funny. Okay, that helps me understand. So you've been unsuccessful at convincing them to join the PCA?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, it's a touchy subject, so I've not pushed. I don't yeah I, there was no sympathy in the early years. Yeah. So I've not pushed that.

Marlin Detweiler:
And I can understand that. I have seen the value and the detriment of denominational elements in the church over my lifetime. And I imagine you're referring to some of that.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
So I'm a Presbyterian by conviction. But this is a wisdom issue as to what you can lead a congregation to do. The difference between somebody who's wise and somebody who's foolish is going to be somebody who blows up a church over that issue, as opposed to realizing there's more good that can be done by leaving that alone, at least for now.

Marlin Detweiler:
I think that's very good. Tell us a little bit more about your family.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, as assistant minister in Coral Gables, I married a daughter of the church, Emily Billings. Her father was a local businessman. And he died suddenly my first year in Coral Gables. He was one of the acts, he was a trustee at the University of Miami and was the Orange Bowl committee president, which is, you know, like the most prestigious position in South Florida. So she was right.

Marlin Detweiler:
If you're moving on, I wanted to just wait until you finished. But I want to say something. It was through the Billings family that I met you. And if I remember correctly, when Jim Billings passed away, he was such a prominent citizen in Miami that the Miami Herald had as its banner headline, Mr. Miami Dies.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
That's absolutely correct. We've got a copy of that paper. Mr. Miami Dies. Yeah. So she was just 16 years old at the time. But eventually, during my time there, my relationship to Emily evolved, shall we say. And we married six months before I came to Savannah. So when we arrived here, Emily was 20 and I was 31.

Marlin Detweiler:
That is very young for such a historic and established church. And let me just say, for the audience, I was not involved in that at all, but I was around at close enough to know that you handled that romantic interest exceptionally well.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, you're kind. You're kind. Yeah. So it's all worked out beautifully. We have five children. They've all married, and we have now 14 as of yesterday grandchildren and two more on the way. So it's been a fruitful union in many different ways.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's wonderful. Well, let's jump right in there. Kind of two topics I want to talk about today. The first one is to talk about what I would call the least regarded commandment. And I want to hear you talk about that because I've heard you talk about it before. The second one is to talk a little bit about Veritas Academy Savannah, a classical school that you started many years ago and had an interesting approach to it in its onset, being one of the early, what I would call university model schools.

00:08:52:05 - 00:09:19:02

I understand they evolved from that point, but I want to hear a little bit about your thinking about how it came together. But first talk about the fourth commandment. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. In our brief conversation before we turned on the microphone, I mentioned to you it seems to me the least regarded commandment of what we might call the Big Ten, the Ten Commandments. I know you agree with that. Tell me why you think that's true?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, I can give you the longer explanation in this Banner of Truth booklet for anyone who wants to know.

Marlin Detweiler:
We're all about promotion. You go right ahead.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
And there's a picture of the church, by the way, for your people who would have no idea what building we were talking about. Very good. But yeah, it's ironic that people generally recognize the other nine commandments, and yet they want to reach into the middle of the ten, pluck out the four, and show no regard for it.

And that's really unprecedented, not only in the history of the church, but especially in the history of Protestantism, where there's always been a strong Sabbath keeping ethic. And indeed, I can remember as a child growing up, even in Southern California, where people, the stores were closed and there was close.

Marlin Detweiler:
I remember it that way, too.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
So you're talking late 50s and into the mid 1960s. This was still a Sunday Sabbath keeping culture. And I think that professional sports had an impact. You know, college sports didn't have games on Sundays, but that Sunday was the NFL's day. And it was not until, I think, 1930 something or other where Chicago was.

No, it was Philadelphia. No once again, it was Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh Pirates were allowed by the city fathers to play on Sunday. And then the NFL. And I think the opening of the malls also had an impact. Prior to that, most stores were standalone. They weren't in clumps like malls. But the malls opened and there was a requirement that the stores remained open, and it became a shopping day as a result.

So sports day, shopping day. And I think that those two things, the desire to, you know, get your business done and leisure activities. I think that that led to the breakdown of the Sabbath and in other words, there was no longer a day dedicated to the things of God. It was now a day in which you catch up on other things.

And you enjoy your own leisure pursuits, which I think is a disaster. And if I could sum up the why, I think it is particularly a disaster. I believe there is no commandment of God except that there is a reason for it. None other is. There are no arbitrary commands just imposed.

I think don't eat of the fruit. I think that was an arbitrary command. It was the naked word of God. And is Adam going to obey it? But I think ever since all the commandments are for our good, well, then, what's the point of the fourth commandment? Well, apparently we will not spiritually thrive unless we set aside a day.

I mean, it's one thing to have, you know, your own private devotions Monday through Saturday or a prayer meeting on Wednesday night and so forth and so on. But it's in the nature of things that we as believers in this world, under God, we need a whole day set aside for the things of God devoted to the things of God, where we set aside all of our worldly activities, worldly employments and recreations, as I think the language in the catechisms.

And we devote the whole day, 24 hours to the things of God. And so only when we do that, that we will flourish. And it's only when we do that the reason why it's only then is because it's built into the nature of things, so that the command is not arbitrary. The command is given because that is what we need.

We need a day devoted to the things of God. If we failed to do that, well, you know we're not going to thrive, flourish early, to the degree that we would have if we had devoted a day out of seven. That is the Lord's Day, the day of the resurrection, Sunday, entirely to the things of God from start to finish. That's it.

Marlin Detweiler:
What? So clearly that is not where we are. What's been interesting is to see let's take the NFL as an example that I'm benefiting from Monday night and Thursday night, because with some other days and all of a sudden and in our culture, the weekend of Saturday and Sunday has blurred into some other things because the work week becomes a little different for some people than others and that sort of thing.

And so there's been some element of accidental, probably economically driven modification of an exclusive NFL on Sunday as an example. But it hasn't been it certainly hasn't been for reasons of respecting the commandment. I'm curious if you have, I don't know, your eschatology, to put mine on the table. I'm postmodern. You know, I think that we're going to see great things over the long term with the gospel, reaching the entire world.

And in that light, or maybe in some other light that might be more comfortable in your belief. Do you see a way of recovery of that commandment culturally?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, I would identify as a positive amillennialist. But, you know, some people have described as a post millennial who doesn't have the guts to admit it. Okay. One of my favorite books of all time is in Murray's book, The Puritan Hope. And, you know, he catalogs how the modern missionary movement was driven by a kind of post millennial view of the conversion of the world.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
So you go back to William Carey and then right on through to the beginning of the 20th century, missionaries poured into the mission field because they were convinced that the gospel was going to conquer the world. And there's a famous statement by William Carey himself when Krishna Powell was converted, the first Indian convert. He had been in India for five years without a convert.

And then finally the first convert was made. And William Carey said he saw behind Krishna Powell a whole continent coming to Christ. So that's that. Rather than pessimism, the pessimism of dispensationalism that the whole world's going to hell in a handbag and inevitable decline, and then the church is going to get raptured out of a world that's plunging into ruin.

The post millennial view was, no, the gospel is the power of God. No. The knowledge of the glory of God will cover the earth as the waters cover the seas, as the prophets say. No. The day will come when no man need to say to his neighbor, know the Lord, for each shall know him from the least to the greatest, and all power in heaven and earth has been given to Christ and to his church.

And so go and make disciples and baptize them. And so, yeah, it's this optimistic view of the long run. So I don't know what kind of time frame are we talking about? You know, it could be 20,000 more years before Christ returns. And so there's going to be a lot of ebb and flow.

There's going to be a rise and fall. The church is going to go three steps forward. It's going to fall back two steps. Right now in the West, you know, it's a disaster. Right. And they're so different in Europe. And then throughout the former colonies of the European nations it's disaster. But what about Asia?

What about Africa? You know, they're talking about 100 million Christians in China now, right? They're, you know, Africa close to being a Christian continent. Latin America, you have great spiritual movements taking place. So, you know, the jury is still out on how far the gospel is going to spread.

But if you go back to the foot of the cross, what do you have? You got 11 disciples who are scattered to strike the shepherd. The sheep scattered. They scattered. And 2000 years later, we got a couple of billion Christians. That's extraordinary. That's some remarkable growth. And why would we think it wouldn't continue?

Marlin Detweiler:
You know what? Let me go back to my question. Can you envision, as you think maybe entrepreneurially, a path that might take us from here to a proper regard of the Sabbath?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
I think that I don't think it can be a top down imposition or commandment. I think that it would have to be a bottom up that people crying out for a respect for the Lord's day, that there would be so many earnest, serious Christians, so much, so many converted, that there would be an outcry for it.

And people would begin to see that the activities of the ordinary activities of the Sunday in our culture were desecration and a dishonoring of God and would be crying out for it. So I don't think you can top down the Fourth Amendment, but I think you can bottom up it through. I think the same is true of the, you know, the moral filth that's on our televisions.

And it comes over the smartphones. I think that when is that all going to get cleaned up? Well, with it when there's an outcry and where there's where there's a consensus, which is a maybe a which.

Marlin Detweiler:
Factors into an economic response. My lack of participation has an economic impact on the people wanting needing it.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah. Well, you know, you remember Jim Baird, who was the pastor at Granada President.

Marlin Detweiler:
I know him well, but know who he was.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah. Well, he told he told a story about grocery store opening up in one of small southern town in which he was pastoring. And there was, you know, Christians were organizing against it. And so he went and had a personal conversation with the store owner. And the store owner said, all right, all right. Baird here's what I'll do.

I'll close my store all day on Sunday, except for one hour from 12 to 1. And Barrett said he's turned on his heels and walked out because he knew he was whipped. Because what the guy was saying was at your people. Baird. Yeah. Who after church is out, who are stopping at my grocery store and making it profitable for me to be open.

Yeah. And so it's not until Christian people quit patronizing the stores. And it's not until they turn off their televisions, turn off their radios, and quit picking up their groceries and until we quit economic activity, making it unprofitable for stores to close. They're not going to close. Exactly.

Marlin Detweiler:
And that's true with my money for a ticket to a professional sports event, and all kinds of things. Isn't it?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah. And I think also, you know, I made the statement in one of my sermons on a Super Bowl Sunday, and one of my members just absolutely scoffed at me. You know how they can do, and didn't believe me. And I was absolutely convinced and certain about this. I said to them, if somebody gave me a Super Bowl ticket, I would.

I would not receive it. I would not go. And he said, oh, come on, if you got a suit, you would go. Certainly you would. I said, absolutely not. I would rather be in the house of God with the people of God under the Word of God and the presence of Christ, who promises to be where two or more gathered in his name.

Then at some big stadium with a bunch of people watching a football game, there's to me there's no comparison. Why would I want to be there when I could be in the house of God with the people of God under the Word of God in the presence of Christ? Explain that to me. Why would any Christian think otherwise? I don't understand it.

Marlin Detweiler:
Did somebody give you a ticket that you got to refuse to prove your point?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
No.

Marlin Detweiler:
Maybe this will result in that so you can have the rest of the story is as, as it goes.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Now, now, I'm not a complete radical about things. I mean, somebody gave me a ticket to a Monday Night Football game. I'd go Thursday night game. Saturday night game. I'd go, depending on how late the Saturday night was. Saturday game? Yeah. I would I go, I don't mind going to ball games. You know, I try to schedule a college football game every, every year, but I, I, I'm a sports fan.

I always have been. I grew up rooting for the Dodgers and the Rams and of course, USC and the Lakers and growing up in LA and, you know, I love watching there, but not on Sunday. The TV stays off. We.

Marlin Detweiler:
We don't talk. We've talked about the behavior of the commandment. But tell us about the benefit in doing so.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, I think that I think that the pattern of the morning and evening service and Sabbath observance, I think they go hand in hand. I think that where you don't have a strong Sabbath doctrine, I think you're unlikely to understand the responsibility to come back for Sunday night. And I think that where you don't have a Sunday night, you're unlikely to keep the whole day holy.

So, in other words, there's a rhythm to a church which has a morning and evening service you go to. You know, typically in our in our church situation, you go to Sunday school in the morning, then you go to the morning worship service, then you go home, you have lunch, we take naps, we get up from our naps.

You know, we might have a beverage or something. At that point. We go back for the Sunday night service in our church. We have a meal every Sunday night.

Marlin Detweiler:
At the church.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah, yeah. So we hang around, we have a meal together.

Marlin Detweiler:
And you come to that?

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Yeah. Yeah.

Marlin Detweiler:
I mean, we might make most of, available sometime. Thank you.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Come on, come on. We socialize and people go home about 8:00, and the day's over. You go home and you get, you know, you relax a little bit more, and then you get ready for bed. You go to bed. So there's a rhythm there. The day is not dull and eventless, you know, it's rather the kind of a purging of secular concerns.

There's a real rest, a true rest, from secular activity, you know, deteriorate the. I don't suffer from the tyranny of the urge. And on Sunday, every other day of the week. Well, I could be doing this. Well, I could be doing this next Saturday. Suffers from that. I really should be mowing the lawn. I really should be raking the leaves.

I really should be dusting the furniture. But Sunday there's a lighter voice that says, no, you are good about it. You're not to do any of those things. I forbid you to do it. Now that louder voice really helps me to relax and rest, even though I'm a preacher and, you know, and I am working, and the historic understanding of the Sabbath is works of necessity, mercy and piety are allowed.

So you can teach Sunday school, you can work in the church nursery, you can preach, you can teach, you can play the organ. So works of piety, necessity. You get a flat tire, you change it. Mercy. You get sick, you can go to a hospital, doctors can work. Pharmacists can work. Nurses. Yeah. But all the ordinary secular activity is to be set aside for sacred activity. Yeah. Spiritual activity.

Marlin Detweiler:
And, you know, I growing up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, in a Mennonite home and the Mennonite community, the practice of the Sabbath was very different than it is today. And I don't believe were the better for it in what it did. And you've really been able to articulate well some of those benefits, the reset and the rest and the lack of being busied by conflicting objectives and priorities and just being able to put it all aside is really consistent with how God made us and how we can enjoy life more fully as a result.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Absolutely. Yeah. And even though I'm busily preaching and teaching, I still find it to be the most restful day of the week. I get a long nap in Sunday afternoon, and it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Marlin Detweiler:
I remember my father. You're reminding me of my father doing that, and really seeing that as a child, as a good model.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
The biggest challenge of Sunday is getting fully awake from the depth of that nap.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's great. Well, we just have a couple of minutes left, and I mentioned I wanted to hear a little bit about you all. Veritas Academy in Savannah was not related to anything Veritas Press or any of the Veritas organizations that I have been a part of. So it's completely unrelated, just to be clear with our audience, but it was a school that came together initially as a group of homeschoolers where certain courses were taught.

I mistakenly thought, and you corrected me on this before we got on the air, that it was intentionally a university model school, but it wasn't quite like that. But even so, to me it was one of the most visible expressions of what we now call university model schooling or nontraditional non five day a week school. What was the thinking for that?

Because I really believe there's some element of it having become a model, at least within classical education of a model, it could be something less than five days.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, we started off disgruntled with the Christian school where we had our children enrolled. They were leaving the house at 730 in the morning and not getting home till 330. And they were kindergarten age, first grade, said Grace.

Marlin Detweiler:
Oh my word.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
And we just thought, this is intolerable, really. We, at this stage, they should not be away from home and mom all day long like that. And so finally, we got disgruntled enough that we decided to start an alternative kind of school. It would be classical, Christian, and covenantal. So for Christian families, it would be.

It would be a Christian in its curriculum. And it would be classical in its curriculum so that there would be a heavy emphasis on memorization at an early stage, starting with Latin, so memorization Latin and extensive reading lists. So lots and lots and lots of reading, which is the key to learning. Anything else is you have to be able to read and to learn.

And so we started off with mainly homeschoolers and offering to homeschoolers elective type classes. So like, I taught an American history class and I taught Western civilization and others taught mathematics. And so this would be for a couple of days a week.

Marlin Detweiler:
Did students come for a cafeteria approach to I'll take this class, not that class.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Right? Right. That's how it started. And eventually we organized into an everyday school and into which homeschoolers can still plug in. I'll take this class in this class.

Marlin Detweiler:
On their, what they want. Not everything necessary approach.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Right. So there's a fee schedule for per class, in addition to there being children who are enrolled five days a week. But what we did to accommodate the other concern about the length of the school day is through sixth grade. They only come to school from 8 to 12. So it's a four hour day.

They go home, they have lunch with their mom and then they do their homework at home. So the parents are still highly involved with the children, which is a good thing. We want parents and a little education of their children. And the other thing it does is that, you know, through sixth grade, they're involved in soccer leagues and all of this. And so what I did is I decided, you know, I'm going to be their coach, I'm going to coach the T-ball team, I'm going to coach the soccer team, or I'm going to find a coach who is going to have an early practice because our kids are home.

Yeah. And so we were able to maintain having dinner together at least through middle school at a reasonable hour. Yeah. They'd be through with their soccer practice. We'd have dinner at 6:30 and so we were able to maintain that all through their educational years.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's wonderful. Boy, that consistent gathering to eat together, dinner in particular, is something that I couldn't encourage our families enough to prioritize.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
So our Veritas Academy hadn't developed long enough for us to continue with our older children. So when they entered middle school, we put them in the closest thing we could find to classical, though not Christian, school. But still, we fought aggressively, or made it a priority, I guess is a better way of saying it.

That we were going to have breakfast every day and dinner every day as a family. So we had family devotions at 7:00 in the morning at the breakfast table every day. And then they would go off to school, and then we made sure we had dinner together as a family every day. So we maintained that for 25 years.

Yeah, we had five children, seven years between the first and the last. And so we had 25 years of child rearing with them in the home before they went off to college. And the last one went off in 2014. And so all through those years, basically what we did was have morning devotions, breakfast, and then we had dinner together as a family. Yeah.

Marlin Detweiler:
Well thank you. Thanks for the model there. Thanks for the conversation. And thank you, folks, for joining us on this episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. Terry, thank you.

Rev. Terry L. Johnson:
Well, thank you. I appreciated the opportunity to speak to your audience.

Marlin Detweiler:
Thanks.