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Dr. John G. West, Vice President of the Discovery Institute, discusses his powerful new book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity: How the Relentless Assault on Religion Has Created a Nation of Christian Hostages.

Dr. West reveals how many Christians—often unknowingly—have adopted the values, language, and priorities of a culture increasingly hostile to Biblical truth. We also explore how this cultural captivity affects the Church’s witness, weakens its moral clarity, and compromises its mission. We’ll discuss real-world examples, historical context, and the urgent need for Christians to reclaim a robust, unapologetic faith.

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode.

Marlin Detweiler:
Welcome to another episode of Veritas Vox. The voice of classical Christian education. Today we have with us John West, the author of a recent book called Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. But before we get into understanding what that is and what you're writing about, John, tell us a little about yourself, your education, your career, and maybe your family.

John G. West:
Sure. Thanks, Marlin. Glad to be with you today. So I’ve been a college professor. And now I'm at a think tank called Discovery Institute. So my professional background, I got a PhD in government where I focused largely on religion and politics in America prior to the Civil War. When I was a college professor,

I did teach in our honors program, and so I helped to teach part of the great book sequence where we focused on ancient and medieval literature. So I have a special interest in issues related to classical Christian education and how much that students really can learn by knowing more about the past because so many people don't know.

And so the great Christian tradition and especially Christian classical education, which is different than you know, just generic classical.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. We're not. Well, there are classicists within the classical Christian education community. We're not here to make people classicists. We're here to learn from the past in order to live in the present.

John G. West:
Yeah. And for the future, too, I would say so. But then at Discovery Institute is probably most known for most notorious for a program I co-founded with philosopher of science Steve Meyer, scientists like Michael Behe or Steve Meyer or Bill Dembski, many others who think there's evidence of intelligent design in nature, which actually is one of the big ideas in the book.

The Christian and Greco-Roman tradition about there being evidence of design and purpose in nature.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah, I don't want to get into it now, but Behe’s book was very effective in doing that.

John G. West:
Yeah. No, no it is. And in fact, there's been a real shift and it's a broader topic than my current book that I just wrote. But there's been, I say, a real growing shift in the scientific community. Understanding that sort of unguided Darwinian evolution really doesn't cut it anymore. And that teleology and purpose, things that say Augustine saw, Aquinas saw, you know, the great thinkers, the Reformation, Calvin and Luther saw, is in fact really what we see in nature.

So I do that. I have particular interest in the use and abuse of science. So what C.S. Lewis says and others, we call scientism. And so I've written a fair amount about C.S. Lewis, coauthored an encyclopedia about him several years ago, I've done documentary filmmaking. You know, personally, we have two children who are now young adults, and we did homeschool up till the time of sort of mid high school.

And one of the things that we tried to do in our own home schooling was to acquaint them with some of the teachings of the early church fathers and the great Christian tradition. And then with regard to the American tradition, I would say the American tradition of the American founding and things like that. So reading original texts and being able to glean things from them and studying different views and debates on things so that they can analyze the logic of things.

Marlin Detweiler:
So those are wonderful things that we promote every day. Thank you for that mention. I'm anxious to hear you tell me, what is Stockholm Syndrome Christianity?

John G. West:
Yeah. So many people have heard the term Stockholm syndrome, but they may not really remember when it comes from. So there was this infamous bank robber in the 1970s in Stockholm, Sweden, where bank robbers took several people hostage. And then something strange happened. About, you know, they were held hostage for over 100 hours. And near the end of their time together, it turned out that many of the hostages began to feel feelings of sympathy, empathy, kindness and friendship towards their captors.

And so psychologists sort of talked about this. And so really, the Stockholm syndrome is the idea that sometimes if people who are held captive or in an abusive situation can end up identifying with their captors.

An American example a few years after what happened in Sweden. Yes. That was part of the trial of her attorneys sort of argue that now. So how does this apply to Christians? Well, as I think theologically conservative Christians, theologically morally conservative, we often tend to blame, oh, the atheists or the secularists, or the agnostics.

They're the ones who are destroying the culture. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. But what I began to see both when I was a professor at a historically Christian university and in my work at Discovery Institute, were dealing with faith leaders at all levels. Is that sadly, in a lot of these cultural areas where I think we're going sort of against, well, just to be blunt, what the Bible teaches us, what I think God wants us to do that.

Yes, there is a secularists who are pushing us in the direction, but in many cases, you actually have leading Christians who are facilitating the same sorts of things. That was sort of a head scratcher for me. And for me, the idea of Stockholm syndrome seemed to really explain people I knew personally who are personally devout Christians in their personal life.

They believed Jesus was their savior. At some sense. They believed that the Bible is true, but that they end up basically pushing the very same things that the secularists promote. And even, I mean, I think as Christians were called to be salt and light to the culture. But in many of these cases, these people are actually rather than being missionaries of Christianity to the culture, they actually turn in to missionaries to their fellow Christians from the secular culture.

And so, and as I thought about that, I think it became clear. If you're a Christian who goes into politics or the media or the entertainment media or academia or education, you spend a lot of time either in graduate school or in your professional life surrounded by people, leaders who basically are hostile to Christianity. Now, they may not be personally hostile to you, but in their worldview it is largely hostile.

And so one thing that some Christians can take from that is actually end up adopting that point of view. And so I think you have a whole class of Christians who are in leadership positions who are sounding too much like the surrounding culture because they've bought into sometimes unconsciously, sometimes consciously, these worldview beliefs of the surrounding elites that they have trained under or that other colleagues.

Marlin Detweiler:
Well, we've had, you know, for generations we've been in the gradual warming kettle using the lobster, boiling how you how you boil a lobster culture that shows up in the public schools as an example. And of course, as Pete Hegseth is prone to say, obviously, our secretary of defense now, but in the context of the book that he and David Goodwin wrote, Battle for the American Mind, it goes slow, it goes slow, until it goes fast.

You know, and we're living in a time where much of that cultural shift that has been going on has sped up. So it makes it a lot more obvious. What are some of the examples, if you don't mind being specific and blunt, what are some of the what are the big elephants in the room, so to speak, that you're observing and writing about?

John G. West:
Yeah. So one is just biblical authority itself. And you have leading evangelical pastors and theologians who are really flying in the face of historic teachings. So one person I talked about in the book is Andy Stanley. He is a megachurch pastor from Atlanta. He trained thousands of pastors around the world. And although he is from the Baptist tradition, I know when I was an elder at a Presbyterian church, we were encouraged to read him, even as a Presbyterian.

So he has major ways. Well, he published a book that basically said that the Old Testament should be regarded as the “Obsolete Testament”. We should reorganize our Bibles so that we move the Old Testament to the back of the Bible, and that basically blames Christians taking the Old Testament seriously for every bad thing Christians have ever done.

And this is from one of the leading evangelical megachurch pastors in the United States. And I want to be clear, he's not just talking about the traditional Christian belief that all, you know, Christians have shared that Christians don't view the Old Testament in the same way that, say, Jews did because Jesus has come, so he's fulfilled the sacrificial law.

We'd all agree with that. I mean, both Aquinas and Calvin would right on that. That's not controversial. You know, but he goes much further than that to basically be advocating that we disown the Old Testament. Well, that’s the problem.

Marlin Detweiler:
This is a problem.

John G. West:
One other example, one of the leading Christian apologists today and he's a member in good standing of the Evangelical Theological Society, is Michael Cohen at Houston Christian University. And he's written books with Oxford. He's written books with Christian publishers and he's done some good work defending the Resurrection. But in his latest books, he basically argues that the gospels now are like Hollywood movies that were inspired by true events but where the scriptwriters changed the facts, the situations, the words to fit the message they're trying to get.

And so the idea that the Gospels are historically accurate and in a way that Christians, both Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox, have believed for 2000 years really is nonsense, is really the drift of what he's saying. So let me give one very specific example. You know, in some of the Gospels, it talks about Jesus on the cross saying, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

That was actually a quote from Psalm 22, which is an amazing prophetic psalm about what Jesus experienced on the cross. Well, in the Gospel of John, which was written generally regarded as written a little bit later, John supplements and writes additional things that some other gospels don't cover. And so he doesn't give them My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

But he gives another thing that Jesus said from the cross, which is I thirst. There's no contradiction between saying that Jesus said, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? and saying, I thirst. He said both. Well, not according to Michael O'Connor. According to Michael O'Connor, John basically rewrote My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

As I thirst. Now he tried to say, well, this is like a paraphrase or something, but let's be honest, if we had a thousand people gathered and we asked them to paraphrase, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? None of them would come up with I thirst. I mean, this is not. And yet this is someone who's very influential.

And in fact, I've known a number of people who are his friends. You know, they're not willing to speak out against him. One major person. I'm not going to out here, but liked my book but wouldn't endorse it because of this person's personal friendship with Michael O’Connor. Well, that's pretty corrosive. So that's one big bucket, is biblical authority. Okay. And another is the area of silence. And you know, Christians can have some different views about science. They have some different views about evolution and things. But I think we all should be able to agree that God directed and intended human beings and that the method of creation that God uses was an intentional one that he directed his outcomes.

Well, many Christians in academia and elsewhere are arguing that God himself didn't know the future and that God set up a process that he didn't know how it would turn out. And he didn't really direct it.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's a term, the term applied to. That's open theism. Correct?

John G. West:
That is one of the terms. Right. And I actually talk about my experience teaching at a Christian college where that was the paradigm dominant view of the faculty. They were teaching kids. And I, as a political science professor, had kids come in for advising on academic subjects. And they were distraught. And I would try to help them and give more faithful resources.

But they were propagandized on open theism at my university and had devastating consequences for people. So, yeah, there is a time, but even more generally, let's look at who is the most well identified, because sometimes Christians think if we just put more Christians in places of power, that would solve our issues. Well, not if they're Stockholm syndrome Christians.

And so I may not controversial here, but let me talk about Francis Collins. So the probably the most prominent evangelical Christian Scientist in America over the last decade is Francis Collins. But let's look at how he actually governed. Not only did he basically have a view of evolution that he sort of talked to both sides of his mouth is whether he thought actually God directed or not.

But let's talk about other issues, life issues here. You have the most devout, evangelical Christian Scientist in America who has, you know, was the head of the NIH, the national Institutes of Health that spends billions of federal dollars. So he's probably the most powerful scientist in America for over a decade.

And what did he do? Well, he spent millions of dollars to create a tissue bank of body parts harvested from aborted babies up to 42 weeks in gestation. In order to do medical research, he funded research where they actually took scalps from little babies and joined them and grafted them onto mice. He spent even more millions of dollars on supporting hospitals and doctors that were doing transgender surgeries on kids and giving kids, you know, cutting off their private parts and filling them with chemicals and hormones of the opposite sex.

This was funded with our tax dollars signed off on and supported by Francis Collins, the leading evangelical Christian Scientist in America.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah, well, it's easy for me to see that as a big problem. The problem that we have is making that real in our pews.

John G. West:
Yes.

Marlin Detweiler:
And I know that you've talked about solutions, but before we go there, I want to go a slightly different direction for a moment. Sure. I think it was Gamliel that told his peers, let him alone. And if they're of God, we can't stop it. And if they're not, they'll die out like the other guy did. That was somebody claiming to be,

I don't remember the story well enough off the top of my head, but somebody claiming to have an insight into truth and died out, and his people scattered. With some of these people increasingly going off the deep end. I understand the real and present concern. Andy Stanley's church, the reach that he has beyond there Francis Collins and what he might influence with other Christian Scientists.

Bad term is scientists who are a Christian. The a double meaning there has to be. We have to be careful about. When we live in the middle of something. It needs to be dealt with today as well. It's not just about tomorrow. I understand that. So what do we do? How do we work through that with an eye on tomorrow as well as today?

John G. West:
So in answer to the first thing that you raised, I think it's certainly true. I mean, in the long run, God is sovereign. And so I believe that but I care about my kids. I care about my grandkids. And their culture. So one way things can die out is after they've done horrific damage and then they die out because there's no faithful Christians left. And so, you know, you're under God's judgment as a nation. So, I mean, I don't not.

Marlin Detweiler:
A good option.

John G. West:
Correct. So I'm glad you raised it to what we do about it, because my passion in writing this book, you know, part of it was to reveal what's happening and also to give a grounding going back to the Bible, to the early church fathers, to the Middle Ages, to the reformation of what the standard teaching of the great Christian tradition has been in each of these areas, whether it be about sex or science or the biblical authority or race and ethnicity and religious liberty.

I mean, these are issues of which I deal sort of in the critique part of it. But my real passion is what do we do about it? And there are lots of things that we can do about it. One thing. Well, the two really big things. So and they might not seem as important, but I would just urge people to think about is Christians need to ask how are they stewarding their time, talent and treasure?

Marlin Detweiler:
Absolutely.

John G. West:
So, what do I mean by that? Well, I don't think people should willy nilly leave a church and know the last church that my wife and I were in before our current one. We were there for 18 years. Nonetheless, there are lines to be drawn and so I've known people who are in churches where say, the pastor goes off the deep end and say, redefines marriage, but they stay because of their emotional commitment to their friends at the church and they continue to donate and they continue to be active participants in there.

But then you're actually helping to support something that you know is wrong. And so how are you using your time, talent and treasure? Who are you donating to? Maybe you graduated from a Christian university 30 years ago. That was great. But you now know that it's actually gone in a different direction. But out of the feeling of misplaced feeling of gratitude, you're writing a check each year to help them along.

Well, then again, you're in many sets. I say worse than the Stockholm Syndrome Christian because the Stockholm Syndrome Christians are. They may think they're doing right, but they're not. But you know what some of these groups are doing and you're surprised. So, number one, if every Christian, if you know, even if you can't do great things or you don't think you can do great things, if you're just for those.

Marlin Detweiler:
Things that you know are bad.

John G. West:
Exactly. So that's number one. But then, and this gets to the educational issue and sort of classical Christian education, which I think is a great sort of solution for some of these things, which is who is really raising your kids. And is it you? Is it your church? Is it your is it social media, the culture?

Is it Google? Is it Hollywood? Is it Netflix? The number of parents I know who themselves are traditionally, you know, theologically conservative Christians who end up not recognizing their kids by the time they reach junior high or let alone high school. And you start finding out, well, what were they allowing their kids to do?

And you know, it was really they were not raising their kids. Now, you can do all the right things and your kids can still make a decision to go in a different direction. But I pretty much guarantee it. If you are allowing your kids to be raised by the culture, what you reap, you're going to sow. And so I think that is a way of being really intentional about how you raise your kids.

And I do think you know, people and certainly in some areas of the country where the public schools are absolutely terrible, you can still send them there if you're intentional about what you do outside the public schools. But increasingly in places like Seattle, where I'm located, the public schools really are not safe.

Marlin Detweiler:
So that's a whole different issue. And I would disagree with you. I appreciate you being a bit gracious there to the audience, but the fact of the matter is the public are government schools will. I went to what would be considered a wonderful public school. I graduated in 1974. I remember the day that scripture reading and prayer was taken out of the school, and that wasn't the problem.

That's not why they got bad. They got bad because they never had the truth in them. What if you were to Google? I think I've said this on here before, but if you were to Google the ten most important events in history, I don't know how many pages you have to go because I quit. But I never saw the birth of Christ or the life of Christ, or the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as one of the most significant events in history.

No one would honestly argue its impact in terms of being a top ten. In reality, it's just not there. And that's the public schools education. I never knew what the Reformation was, and it was in history.

John G. West:
So you're right on that. And we homeschooled our kids. I mean, they were in public schools for a couple of years but then we mostly homeschooled after that. And so I am and then I'm, I'm a oh, I'm saying I know some parents still feel overwhelmed or for whatever reason they don't feel that they can.

But I'm saying even if you were to send your kids to public schools, then even more so you need to be intentional about supplementing and providing additional, you know, history and other teaching so that or else you can't let the public schools or even some Christian schools that aren't—you know, there are a lot of Christian schools that are wobbly on a lot of things.

Yeah. The number one thing is that parents, if you're serious about having kids, those kids are entrusted to you. You need to be—you are in charge of their moral and spiritual and social development. And you can't just, you know, cede it to someone else, even a Christian school. You can't cede it to it. Now the good news is there are so many great resources now and also because of things like homeschooling, homeschool co-ops and other things, it is so much easier to do these things than it was 30 or 40 years ago. And so I do hit that pretty hard in my book. And so, you know, a lot of the people who are watching this are already doing that. That's great. But do you.

Marlin Detweiler:
Still have a problem there? Because we're more than one generation removed from a robust, thorough and comprehensive understanding of biblical orthodoxy and that means we've lost a lot even in the home.

John G. West:
That's true and in the church. And so part of my book is trying to get us back to some of the basics on that because I do think America has risen and fallen. I mean, this is not the first time that the church in America, let alone the church in the world, has had to confront some of these things in early 20th century.

By the early 20th century, it actually had roots well before then. You had what was called the fundamentalist modern split. But basically they were junking traditional Christianity. But you had people like Jay Gresham Mitchem and many others who really provided a different way. And I think that gave us an extra lease on life, if you will.

And then by the 70s, you had the same thing happening. I actually talked about some of this in the book. So the battle for the Bible, the battle for inerrancy and other things. And then you again had people like Francis Schaefer and many others who still stood up. And I think that out of that actually came some of the birth of robust homeschooling again and a lot of other good things.

But I now think the evangelical church in America is facing another crisis point because when you have leading megachurch pastors or Christian professors who are basically belittling the authority of the Bible, let alone all of them who have abandoned—I mean, just this very week or last week, Fuller Seminary, which along with Wheaton is like one of the best known sort of places of traditional evangelicalism.

And Fuller has been sliding for some time but they just came out with a statement that said they were reaffirming their beliefs in biblical marriage, but in fact they were doing the opposite because they were saying, well, yes, we're reaffirming our official statement, but we're also now saying that you can be a faithful Christian and believe in same sex marriage.

So they were actually gutting the authority of the statement. And Fuller Seminary right now has an Old Testament professor, Christopher Haynes, who last year published a book with his late father, who was another theologian, basically saying that, well, God changes his mind so we can change our mind on gay marriage—at least to their credit, admitted that the Bible didn't actually favor it but they argue the Christian position should be changed.

That's one of the leading professors at Fuller. So this is, we do have a problem right now with, I'd say there are a lot of Christian institutions, evangelical Christian institutions that were started in the 30s, 40s, you know, in as trying to be a faithful right response to what had happened to the so-called mainline liberal denominations.

But now they're in the exact same place. And it's really, it's incumbent upon evangelical Christian leaders, pastors, board members, I talk a lot about in my book about the importance of board members of institutions. To basically call these institutions back to faith or, you know, to leave and start new institutions again. I mean, it is, but I think there is a crisis point right now among evangelical Christians because the slide has been so considerable in many of our institutions.

Marlin Detweiler:
In our closing minutes here, can you offer tactical solutions not to the evangelical leader, maybe to the pastor of the local church, but to Mr. and Mrs. Smith? Yeah. Every day. Christian. American. How? Because I understand the value of voting with their wallets. Voting with their feet. I understand those things. I also understand the value of speaking up. What do you recommend?

John G. West:
Yeah. So, one of my tips to actually give over 20 things that people can do and depending on what you're called to do. And so we've already talked about a couple of them. And those are really important.

Marlin Detweiler:
Is that list of 20 in your book?

John G. West:
It is a good reason to have the book.

Marlin Detweiler:
I know I'll do that unashamedly.

John G. West:
Yeah. Whether you're a teacher, a pastor, just an ordinary person, a grandparent who has grandkids. So I give all those recommendations. And in my website for the book, I get a lot of free additional resources that even if people don't need to buy my book, they can just go and get it. And so let me talk about one, a couple of additional things.

So one is where do you and your family and your church get their information from? And I think in my experience, you know, how do people who are personally faithful end up going down the road of Stockholm syndrome Christianity? Well, in my own personal knowledge of friends I've known who've gone down this path. One of the real first steps is that they're getting their information from, you know, CNN, New York Times, you name it, they're getting it from the same place that the secularist friends and colleagues are getting their information.

And that's where it starts. And so one of the things you need to get control over is where are you getting your information from? And I want people through in a chapter all the ways, whether it be social media, Google, mainline media, whatever, of how these things are shaping even Christians views on what's important, what to focus on.

I mean, it's not just, you know, I'm not saying there's a big conspiracy of non Christian media to lie about everything, although there is some stuff that lies a lot.

Marlin Detweiler:
We know that for certain. But that's really not the issue here. We need to understand where the truth is.

John G. West:
Correct and they give you a little slant. Said something really. It was actually about our view of nature that the problems over the material sphere of nature is that they don't even ask the right questions. So if you think things are just plain matter and motion, all of your questions to nature are and the things they're going to ask is going to reinforce that.

So you may get some truthful answers, some truthful data, but you're ignoring the whole large all this other information out there. And that's what the media do to us. So I think that you know, getting control and this is a way that pastors can help their, you know, congregants is where are you getting your information from?

Is it podcasts like this? Is it the you know, the online media? There are lots of great Christian media outlets now and other media outlets where you actually can get a full review of what's happening today around our world. And that will help. And I think too often Christians just don't think about that. But something else, if you happen to be a board member of a church or a Christian school or a ministry, or you're invited, there are things that you need to ask about.

You know, the number one thing, the reason why I think that Christian institutions fail in my view, is they don't pay attention to the truth that in politics, which is personnel, is policy.

Marlin Detweiler:
I saw what happens there.

John G. West:
Correct. And so I've seen this when I was an elder and we were involved in hiring people. And I relate some of these things in my book where there was effort because people didn't want to ask really direct questions. And so we almost had some people who really wouldn't listen to that. But you need to be willing to really dig and ask the questions to make sure that yeah, that's the number one thing, because in a university, similarly, you know, a faith statement means nothing if the people you hire don't actually support it.

Marlin Detweiler:
And so.

John G. West:
You know, that's another thing, whether it be your church or some other Christian institution, if you're in a leadership role, the choosing of personnel is absolutely critical because personnel is policy. So that's another issue. But then you know, there are also things if you're a grandparent, you know, maybe you had your kids for, you know, you did the best you could but your kids sort of went away from the faith.

But you have a passion for your grandkids. You know, there are resources out there that you can strategically use for both Christmas and birthday gifts for when you take them on field trips. I mean, there are ways that you can influence them, and obviously you influence them with your relationship, but there are also ways that you can point them out completely.

Marlin Detweiler:
I see it in my own circumstances. You know, it's one of the things that attracted my wife and I so much to classical education was the fact that we weren't turning a blind eye to what happened in the past, and we were learning about it in order to deal with the present.

And I really believe that the classical Christian education plays a role that way in helping people simply to think better and to understand something going on now. And its connection not with intent, but its connection to it having happened before and seeing the results.

John G. West:
I think that is absolutely critical. And I will say again, people don't need to read my book or buy it, but one of the things that I do—

Marlin Detweiler:
Don't mind you encouraging it, I'm looking forward to reading it because I haven't yet.

John G. West:
But I just going to say one of the things I think it will be particularly of interest to people who are interested in classical Christian education is one of the things I tried to do when they're talking about sexual or religious liberty or biblical authority is to go back and give the historic Christian teaching that people may not know. They know well the Bible.

A few verses that the Bible tells us, but you know, give a more grounding in the Bible. But then also how the early church said the same thing, how it was said the same thing in the Middle Ages, how during the Reformation they said the same thing. And I try to actually show, you know, I don't have exhaustive time, but in each of these areas, if there is a deep grounding in the Christian teaching of the past and in fact, there's nothing new under the sun.

I mean, I do talk about in area of like, sexuality. I mean, a lot of the battles in the early church, the Greco Roman era, as I'm sure you know, was not an area of biblical sexuality. And the Christians actually were immersed in this place.

Marlin Detweiler:
For an end to it. Absolutely.

John G. West:
And yet the church flourished because why? It provided a different path that was led to human flourishing. And so I do give some of that in the book. Also give some of the roots of our malaise because I think people need to know just how pernicious the Darwinian myth has been in the area of sexuality, in the area of science and our belief is God is creator.

And so I give some of that. But so I try to, you know, I tell about the problems that a lot of people know a bit about the problems. I try to go deeper so that people can be equipped to saying, you know, that Christians have dealt with this before, and we have authoritative teaching that reflects reality that goes from the very beginning to the church.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. Well, thank you for what you've done, for what you're doing and for joining us here because this is a very important topic. When we have the Christian church accepting the things that it is, and we are in a place of not really realizing the impact of that on us, we need to be awakened. We need to be awakened. And you're doing that. Thank you.

John G. West:
Well, thank you. And thank you for all you're doing to promote Christian classical education and all the people who are watching who are involved in that. You are actually investing in the next generations and the future of our country.

Marlin Detweiler:
And we hope we're doing it well. So thank you, folks. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Veritas Vox, the voice in classical Christian Education. John. Thank you.

John G. West:
Thank you, Marlin.