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How do you answer students who ask, “How are the great books going to benefit me?” We discuss this and all other things classical literature with Dr. Matthew Post, the Applied Associate Professor of Philosophy and Assistant Dean of Academic Affairs at the Honors College at the University of Tulsa.

If you’ve ever wondered how to explain what makes the Great Books different from series like Twilight, this episode is for you!

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode.

Marlin Detweiler:

Hello and welcome again to another episode of Veritas Vox. The voice of classical Christian education. We're glad you're with us today. We have with us Matthew Post. Matthew, welcome.

Dr. Matthew Post:

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Marlin Detweiler:

Matthew is an applied associate professor of philosophy and assistant dean at the Honors College at the University of Tulsa. You'd have to have an extra large business card to have all that in there with you.

Dr. Matthew Post:

I know there's, you know, other titles that could go on there. Therapist, you know, sometimes people need a shoulder to cry on, you know?

Marlin Detweiler:

That's funny. Well, Matthew, before we get started, I always like for people to get to know our guests and tell us a little bit about your family, your education, and your career that led you to this point.

Dr. Matthew Post:

Yeah, sure. Thanks for asking, Marlin. So in terms of my family, I'm from Canada originally, and I'm still a Canadian citizen. I'm descended from farmers, really, on both sides of the family. And on one side, coming from Belgium and England and Ireland. And apparently I look exactly like my Irish great grandfather.

So those genes are strong. At least in terms of the visual presentation. And then on my father's side, they're all Dutch. And if you ask them, they literally came out of the earth in northern Holland. And they came to Canada shortly after World War two. So. And my grandfather actually fought in World War II in the liberation of Amsterdam, actually.

So these, as you guys know, these are the kinds of things that kind of shape you as a child, you know, and you hear these stories of courage and sacrifice, but also you see that there's a price, you know, like my grandfather had to sleep with a light on, you know, and he had night terrors and so there's a lot in my family.

I think all of us have this right. If you poke into it, there's a deep history there. And a lot to be learned about character. And beyond that, I would say you asked a little bit about education. When I was young, I wanted to be a writer or maybe an artist. So then I settled on the more lucrative philosophy discipline.

Marlin Detweiler:

So is there a little sarcasm there?

Dr. Matthew Post:

So, yeah. No way was I ever going to make money from an early age, it was clear. But there was a brief period where I wanted to be a doctor, and I did actually, being in a little bit of the studies in that direction and was always, did much better in math and in the math and sciences than I did in humanities disciplines.

But, but I don't know, there was just something about, you know, when I was 18, 19 was when we don't have a liberal arts tradition in Canada. So it's when I was 18 or 19, I first encountered a Homer or a more careful way of reading scripture. I, you know, I went to church as a kid, and so I was familiar with scripture, but I hate to say it's just your kid.

It was a bit more of a superficial treatment. There's no criticism of anyone implied by that. But in university, that's where we did a deeper dive with Scripture as well. And there was something about that that I just fell in love with and there for my brief flirtation with a more honorable profession in our society was over. But I have absolutely no regrets. I would say it saved my soul.

Marlin Detweiler:
How do you explain your interest in the humanities? In the great books in particular? From that background, what really captured your imagination?

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yeah. No, that's a great question. So I'd say it's a couple of things. One is that when I was in the middle school years, my grandmother gave me a book of Greek myths. And actually, I am maybe technically first generation university. Neither of my parents completed college, but my grandmother did get a degree in philosophy as part of a program to educate housewives.

And actually, to be fair, she wasn't. She did actually work. She worked for the Canadian government as an administrative assistant. But in any event, she had this deep love of the tradition, of its roots, of its great stories and also a great love of philosophy. And so always encouraged me to be very thoughtful about things.

But so I say that, you know, I think it is this for many people, right? It's someone in your family who believes in you and inspires you and helps cultivate intellectual and moral and spiritual virtues in you. And that that was my grandmother. And actually, I have a daughter and I'm grateful to have named her after my grandmother.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's wonderful. So your work at the University of Tulsa is primarily with undergraduates and primarily with the great books. Is that accurate?

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yeah. That's right.

Marlin Detweiler:
How would you unpack that? Tell me about your students.

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yeah. So at the University of Tulsa, there is really an extraordinary range of students in the sense that you have students who are, that have deep faith commitments and different Christian denominations and occasionally a Jewish student or a Muslim student. And then you have some that are just trying to figure things out, and then you have some who are more confidently on the side of being atheists.

And you also have a broad spectrum in terms of political views. And you know, when you think about the university experience, I've taught in different circumstances. I've taught in classes where pretty much every student had their at least part of the same Christian tradition, even if they disagreed about details. And you know, that can be very beautiful, a community with that kind of shared faith and common language and common understanding of things, very Christ centered approach to everything, which is extremely important.

At the same time, though, if I may put it this way, you know, I would never compare myself to the apostles, just because I'm very far from their standard. But I would say this, that even so, their lives were not dedicated to just. Oh, well, now we found the people who agree with us, we’re good.

Right? They went out into the world to spread the message and the question is, how does one do that today? And one of those ways might be to teach in a program where you have a great diversity of people who don't necessarily see any value in the Western tradition. They don't think there is anything sacred.

Some do, some don't, as I just said. And so one of the things I really appreciate about my work at the University of Tulsa is being in a position to help introduce students to these things. And you can say, well, for the ones who don't know anything about it, it's clear what the value is to us. It's not clear to them. They need a little bit of time to encounter it.

Right. But what about for those who already have a classical background or deep faith? And I would say it's actually valuable for them, too. And in two ways. One is that, you know, we say these are works that are perennial and they have deep wisdom. So the notion that they use Plato as an example, where we read some Plato's Republic in high school.

So we did that. It's like, well, human beings have been going back to that well fruitfully for over 2000 years. So it's no criticism of the high school that maybe a few weeks spent on it didn't plumb all of its steps. Right. So there's more to be done there. But the other thing I would say that is some value to those students is that if they're going to be out in the world, which they are. Right. At some point it will be helpful for them to meet people who may disagree with them vehemently on things.

And our classroom is a place where they can learn how to navigate those discussions and thinking. Also classical education, thinking through grammar, logic and rhetoric which is essential to how we communicate to others. Civil discourse, handling things with grace which even as adults might be difficult. Right.

Marlin Detweiler:
Certainly seen examples of difficulty in recent years.

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yes, absolutely. So and where will the healing begin? I mean, with us certainly. But I think also with what we try to pass on to the younger generation. So anyway, my apologies for speaking at such great lengh, but those are some of the things I would say. I think are valuable about the kinds of conversations we have here on what an encounter with great books and with respect for the sacred can give.

Marlin Detweiler:
Now I am asking you a question for our audience. I don't know how you answered. I have my own answers for this but why is it that the great books become the subject matter that allows us to learn how to relate today?

Dr. Matthew Post:
Right. Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I always say there's 2 or 3 things. I mean, one of them is, you know, what makes a great book? And I remember years ago essentially being challenged on this with respect to the Twilight novels, why aren't they great books, you know, and, you know, you could say, well, The Iliad gets into this wonderful mythology and they're like, well, Twilight has mythology.

And you're like, yeah, but it's a real mythology. No, vampires and werewolves are real mythology. And you're like, I actually know that's true. But, you know, The Iliad talks about real things here. A lot of human relationships, conflict, love, heartbreak. You know, apparently Twilight has that too. I haven't actually read the novels but I believe when the student tells me it has that, it does that.

And then you can say, well, it stood the test of time. But the truth is, there are bad things which stand the test of time. Standing the test of time isn't strictly speaking a measure of goodness. So then I do kind of go back to the drawing board and think about this a little bit more.

And what I came up with is that, for example, in Plato's Republic there's this discussion of the different parts of the soul, you know, and depending on which part of that text you look at, there can be more or less parts, to be honest with you. Some people think it's just three. It's more complicated than that.

But certainly one part of the soul has to do with intellectual vision, a way by which you can actually see the truth with your mind. Another part has to do with speech and the kinds of things that you can learn through calculation. So for example, quadrivial arts and the kinds of things that you can learn through literary or the spoken word.

So the trivial arts. Another part of it has to do with our passions and with our desires. And then ultimately I think another factor there is love and the power of it in drawing us toward truth or when misdirected drawing us toward destruction. And I think that what makes for a great book in this context is something which illuminates all of those parts of the human soul and also draws toward an activity of harmonizing.

I don't just say harmony because actually, at least for most of us, harmony isn't just a stillness.

And even a table that you look at that seems to be just sitting there is being maintained by incredible forces. And then for someone who has faith that it's actually being maintained by the will and eternal creative power of God, right? So there's a lot more going on there than appears at first. So some works that we read really do illuminate every part of the soul, and some of them only illuminate some parts and not others.

So if you read a book that you know stirs your passions or your appetites, that might be helpful in certain ways. There's nothing wrong with reading something that helps you relax. But when you read something that illuminates every part of you and it might be very challenging, it actually might be much less pleasant to read. But it's something which, for various reasons, at a deeper level, transforms you.

And even if there's a hard slog, at some point you look back and you're like, I'm really, really glad I read that. That's a great book. And the reason why it helps us to connect, to kind of get back to your point is because it illuminates us and challenges us. It is something that I actually think you can read on your own, but I think one of the great things that emerges from a great book is you do want to talk to someone about it, you want to share it.

And when you talk to them, you find they disagree. And then in those disagreements, you go back to the book and you realize it was deeper than you thought at first. So it's a continuous practice of challenging yourself, having to listen to someone else, having to rethink what it was you said, and then going back to the source.

And I think that what you see there is the dynamics that I would also consider deeply Christian in a way, in the sense that, you know, you have a Christ centered way of life. Most of us are not fully living up to it. But we are insufficient onto ourselves. So we need Christ, but we also need each other.

And by working with each other, engaging with each other, being charitable but also challenging each other, but always going back to that source, we take immense strength and find a life that is truly worth living and I think that the education Great Books offers is like an image of that deeper Christian life.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah, that's really well put. Now, my understanding is that you'll deal with students who are studying the classics, who are getting a degree that would fall into the liberal arts or humanities community. But you're also dealing with students who are engineering students and maybe other forms of education that is more directly tied to the career that they're seeking.

And one of the things that you mentioned was the idea that a student coming in, this isn't just junior high kids and high school kids that say this. College kids do. What's the benefit? Why am I studying this? They've taken this sense of pragmatism and applied it to their education.

I don't think I will ever use this. Why am I studying this? What do you answer them?

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yeah. Yeah, I know, so there's a lot of different ways of tackling it. And one thing I'll say that I think is important from the outset is, you know, we kind of think about where does this pragmatism come from. And if you ever read George Orwell's essay, Such Were the Joys. It's interesting because he's essentially in one of these schools that some people in classical education dream of being a part of.

But he describes it as utterly miserable because they do engage with these rich classics. They learn Latin, but they learn Latin for advancement in life. And so much of what he describes has to do with looking down on others and degrading others. And he talks about, you know, if I'm getting this correctly, like, you don't want to end up being an office boy for 20 pounds a year, right?

And it's quite clear that just having the classics isn't good enough. In fact, I think as Scripture teaches us, nothing is revealed to human beings so good that we can't reject or pervert it immediately. If we set our twisted hearts to doing so. So it's important to understand where the rejection of the classics came from, which I would say isn't this or that terrible author?

I think it's just it's human sin and it's the way we pervert good things and people reject it. And then they say, well, you said the classics are so that I can get advancement in life. I can get investment in life without them, you know? So we need to recover them. And I think that's very important in classical ed.

And I would say one of the first things that I kind of point out to students is, you know, we might be reading Homer's Iliad and, you know, we were talking about an Achilles dilemma, you know, should he avenge Patroklos and die young? But his name will live on forever, you know, with the class? Or should he go back with his myrmidons and live with Perseus and, you know, die many children having lived a long time.

But there will be no playoffs for him. There will be no glory. And I remember the students were like, yeah, this is Achilles dilemma. And I said, Achilles dilemma. It's not your dilemma. And they're like, well, no, I'm not like some king or chieftain. And whatever. This is the ninth century BC or eighth century BC. And I said, right.

I said, because you guys want to be the heads of hospitals or, you know, leading some R&D division at Google or something like this. And I said, and you're just doing that out of pure interest. It has nothing to do with honor or what you think is most honorable in our society. And you don't think that your pursuit of that honor and that career will entail sacrifices, and that maybe if you wanted to live a life where you have your child in your life and you're playing with them and you're surrounded by your family and a close knit community, that actually having that might entail not having the honor of being some

awesome tech entrepreneur or some. And, you know, one of the girls in the class said, you're breaking my brain right now. And, with your questions. And she said, I'm becoming someone else. And I don't know who it is. And, because these are big questions and they're also questions we have to face, even if they're on a smaller scale.

But some of the other things I pointed out to them is, you know, for example, years ago, you know, an American airline, which I won't name, was wondering why a European airline was doing better than them. Even those tickets were more expensive. They hired consultants, paid them ridiculous amounts of money. Maybe six months or more went by.

No one figured out why. And then finally, one of these consultants had the bright idea of looking at a photo of the inside of one of the planes of their competitors, and what they saw was that, first of all, there was more space between the seats. And also the inside of the plane was esthetically pleasing. Yeah. And they're like, oh, I figured it out.

It's just a better experience. And they went back to the American airline and said, we figured it out. If you just make it a better experience, you can charge more and you'll have to your competitor. Maybe if you make it even nicer and they're like, yeah, we're not doing that. But one of the interesting things about that is that it does tell you something about business, which is that and I think it's very interesting, which is that because this is an ancient insight, which is that if you pursue what is beautiful and good and true, what wealth you need will follow. This is also a claim from Scripture.

But if you pursue wealth, then ugliness follows. And even though that airline in Europe, I'm sure cared more about money than that does about Christ. But the point is that in whatever little way they thought, we can make this more beautiful and enjoyable. What that really means is they thought, how can we make this more humane?

Marlin Detweiler:
And they understood in very real terms that that connected to a better value, a better something that people were willing to pay more for and it was simply speaking going to make them more profitable as a result. They were pursuing the one that made the most sense.

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yeah. Exactly. And you need to be formed to have that judgment. Right. And I think a lot of what we do helps form this so that students can excel in their professions but they can do so in a way that doesn't have to compromise on having some esthetic or moral or spiritual integrity depending on the occasion.

Marlin Detweiler:
Interesting. Well, there's an l there's another element of this pragmatist that comes to you and says, what's the point of doing this? That I'd like to pursue a little bit with you here for a minute? Or more than that, and that's the idea that the water in which we swim as Americans is very infected with pragmatism.

So we're born into a pragmatic philosophy of life. It affects. Most of education in my life. Maybe in your life as well. You're a bit younger than me but was, you're getting an education in order to get a job. It was very ordered. It was very precise. It was very intentional. And there was another element in that was.

And this one wasn't spoken as well but it was part of it. You're being educated in order to be a good compliant citizen of the United States. And so those two things as opposed to being given an education that encouraged me to be free and to enjoy the life that God has given me. It was very pragmatic.

So we're born into that. Does that impact the students that come to you with such pragmatic free dispositions? How do you deal with that? And what are the kinds of students that have been able to break the chains of that a bit?

Yeah. That's a good question. So beyond the career question, as you said, the political question, the citizenship question. So I think that on that level and of course since I come from Canada I haven't had the same education in America but I have heard some things about it.

And you're dealing with it. You, are you better equipped to deal with it, you think, for being from outside it?

Yeah, maybe. I think it's probably. Yeah. Because there are certain debates here that I observe a little bit more from the outside. And sometimes someone will say, are you a Democrat or a Republican? And I'll say, well, I'm a Canadian, I don't have a right to vote here.

And I agree with not having a right to vote here. All citizens should have the right to vote. But non-citizens I think need to go through the process of joining that community formally. And then they have the right to vote. And I would be happy to do that as opportunity allows because it's a bit of a process.

But I will say this quickly about the political education. I think that maybe it takes kind of two forms. My impression is that in the time of the Cold War there was some importance in cultivating in young people a sense of, you know, you should have a loyalty to this community, you know, to the United States now.

So I do see how emerging from there a great interest in having citizens that are committed and loyal. But I would say this education seems to in America particularly, people talk about how patriotic it is. But actually, if you look at it historically, it's very big on rebellion. I mean, you look at this thing some, you know, yeah.

I mean, you know, you actually people are like, look what's going on. And on campuses. And I'm like, well, the National Guard hasn't killed anyone yet. And it's not to say that what's going on campus, this isn't of concern but it's just America has had plenty of tribulation, and has weathered it, by the way, which I think is important to note.

But I think one of the tricks here, though, is that the rebellious nature isn't always as rebellious as it seems. And it's interesting to talk to people who say, I'm fighting the power. And by talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, I'm rejecting everything from the administration. And I know right now people say, well, that's true of the Trump administration, but five years ago, ten years ago, 15, 20, you weren't actually fighting the administration that was the mandate of the administration.

And so that was being presented as something that was deeply rebellious, deeply critical. And which isn't to say there wasn't some critical thinking involved in this or that way but it wasn't challenging the administration, you know, and it's also very effective, I think. So, for example, in a place where I used to live, there was a school there and which, you know, there was some controversy because of some kids who are administered a test to see if they had some kind of racial prejudice.

And I believe the test just looked at how they responded to black colors and statements about darkness and actually to the test is widely and refuted as a legitimate test for in any way assessing prejudice. But a teacher used this test, and she had a few students come to the front of the classroom who failed it, I say in quotation marks, and she shamed them.

And I was talking to one of the parents from that school, and she said, well, this is overblown. This is ridiculous. This is one teacher in one classroom on one day. And I did a little trick. I turned to her child, who was in that school but not in that classroom, not in that grade. Nothing. And I said, hey, did you hear about this thing?

And he said, yeah. They said, what do you think of it? And he said, those racist kids got what they deserved, right? So the point is that that wasn't just one classroom, one teacher, one day there was an ethos. And that ethos is an ethos that does in some way or another reflect the views of people in politics.

And their understanding is that is what makes for a good citizen is those views and the people who disagree with them also have views about citizenship. And they also think that those things should be cultivated in young people. Right. So on that ground, I don't think there's a difference necessarily. So I think that and I will I will add one thing that is, I think a little bit different from the founders.

I think the founding generation and the generation that followed being a bit closer to the revolution were a lot more interested in education that was deeply suspicious of government in all of its forms. But that has changed over time.

Marlin Detweiler:
Just like the Christian experience. Yeah. Living as a believer, we don't have, you know, is it is it for us to go back to the New Testament church and live communally or are there dynamic equivalents of the Christian community moving on from that into areas that are that are a bit different for a lots of reasons and I think those are things that really have to be thought through well.

And I really am excited to see that you're helping to shape the next generation beyond K-12, into being people that are not only going to go into classical Christian educational professions, like starting schools and being school administrators and being teachers, but being also mindful of what we can glean from the past in order to live in the present in a way that continues to see, God's kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yeah. I mean, to whatever small degree God calls me or us or anyone to that work. It can be very hard work. I think, for myself, I fear that I will not live up to it. And I'm sure I don't in many ways. But fortunately, he's merciful, pretty much endlessly merciful.

So. And he's always—Scripture keeps telling us like a very loving parent—that every time you fall, he's there to help pick you back up. But you know, sometimes he also needs to chastise you a little bit for your own good. But yeah, it's a great privilege to be in this work.

But one quick thing I'll add about the political education before moving on is just to say this, that, you know, as a Canadian and as an outsider, when I see Americans, I mean, I'm not saying that in this spectrum of left to right, there aren't people on the extremes who maybe on some level or another do yield to hate, which is painful to see.

But one hopes that there'll be a redemption there at some point. But for people who aren't at those extremes, they point fingers at each other and say, you're this, you're that. And from my perspective, it's often really not true. Or it's only partially true. And to kind of go back to the example of that high school I was giving, they're doing what they're doing because I think conservatives want to teach a version of America in which racism is brushed under the rug or even celebrated, or slavery is even celebrated.

And I haven't seen that. But by the same token, conservatives think that people on the left have some totalitarian project. And it's not to say that there might not be some people who are like this, but a lot of the people you meet, what it really is for them is that they think there's an injustice out there.

And I think there are people who are being treated very badly. Their dignity is being stolen from them. And we may have some deep disagreements about how to understand that or what to do about it, but I think it's actually amazing and I think genuinely a gift of God and of the divine image in us that there are so many people that really are troubled by that loss of dignity and that if only.

Yeah, if only we could get past that and realize we're arguing about means, not ends. And kind of seeing the other person that they actually are more loving and more compassionate than we believe at first. You know, maybe we could make a little bit of progress to understanding each other better, working together better on these things. I know it's naively hopeful.

Marlin Detweiler:
You know, those are wonderful things to pursue. And I get the feeling that you're doing a really good job of it. We've run out of time. This has been wonderful. We could go forever. But I need to bring this to a close. Thank you so much for joining us, Matthew.

Dr. Matthew Post:
Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate your patience.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. Thank you, folks, for joining us on another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian Education. We hope to see you next time. Thanks, Matt.

Dr. Matthew Post:
Okay. Thank you Marlin.