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In this episode, we chat with Kris Hutson, Superintendent of Dream City Schools, about how those without a classical Christian background may begin implementing classical elements into their curriculum.

We’ll be exploring the practical benefits of studying logic, rhetoric, and using the Socratic method to equip students with the skills to reason, debate, and articulate their beliefs effectively.

Whether you’re an educator, parent, or simply passionate about educational reform, this episode offers a thought-provoking look at how classical elements can enhance traditional Christian education.

New to classical education? We’d love to help you understand it better! Tap here to get a free ebook that covers the basics.

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode for better readability.

Marlin Detweiler:

Welcome again to another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. I want to welcome today, special guest Kris Hutson from Dream City Schools. Two locations, one in Scottsdale, and one in Glendale, in the broader Phoenix market. Welcome, Kris.

Kris Hutson:

Well, thank you very much for allowing me to be a part of this. I'm very excited for the day and pleasure to meet you.

Marlin Detweiler:

Kris, Let's introduce you to our audience. Tell us a little bit about your background, your family, your education, your career.

Kris Hutson:

Well, I grew up in East Texas, went to the University of Texas at Tyler for a Bachelor of Fine Arts, and moved to Arizona for my master's degree in music. I was a band director for 25 years before I went into administration. So, I did the orchestra, beginning guitar, marching band, jazz band. We did it all, trips all over the place.

So, it was a wonderful time. My wife is also a band director, and we've been celebrating our 40th anniversary this year. Have two great kids and three wonderful grandchildren. Two in Thousand Oaks, California, or Gore Hills and one in Nashville.

Marlin Detweiler:

Oh. That's wonderful. And so your career as a band director led naturally to becoming the superintendent of a Christian school, I guess! How did that happen?

Kris Hutson:

I was heavily involved in our church, which was formerly Phoenix First Assembly changed to Dream City, and had a phenomenal music program. My wife and I became involved in the orchestra there. I wound up for a short time, about six years working as Assistant Music Minister at that church. An acquisition occurred and we actually wound up with this school.

And I had gone into administration and had very close ties to the church. They asked me if I wanted to run, you know, take over as superintendent or head of school here. And so I'm starting my third year here at Dream City.

Marlin Detweiler:

So the school was in existence, and the church took it over.

Kris Hutson:

Correct. That's right.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah. How long ago? That was about three years ago now.

Kris Hutson:

Six years ago. We took over six years ago. And then I came on board two and a half years.

Marlin Detweiler:

Well, I assume then the school was renamed to be named consistent with the church. Where did the term Dream City come from. I Googled it before getting on and I didn't see it uniquely attached to Phoenix, so I’m curious.

Kris Hutson:

Well, you know, the name of the church was Phoenix First. The dream of our pastor is to have multiple campuses throughout Arizona. And so you don't want to have a Phoenix First in another town. So basically, a more broad name to encompass because now we have two campuses in California. We have a campus in Oklahoma. So we're expanding out. We have like ten different campuses throughout.

Marlin Detweiler:

Okay. Very well. Now Dream City School is what I would typically call a traditional Christian school. A member of the Association of Christian Schools International and not a classical Christian school.

Kris Hutson:

That is correct. Three years ago, when I came on, we formed an alliance with Charlie Kirk at Turning Point USA. And in that, there was a dream forged between our pastor, Luke Barnett, and Charlie to form a Christian affiliation that aligns to ideologies of what Turning Point represents. So we actually became the first Turning Point Academy.

They moved to a classical format with the five C's. And I just say we were four out of five. We're an affiliate with that.

Marlin Detweiler:

Go ahead and give us the five C's and tell us which four I it needs to hearing that when people talk about Calvinism, they call themselves four point Calvinists instead of five, but I don't know, I gotta have this reminder and then tell me which one you're not.

Kris Hutson:

Well, you know, I should have known that you were going to ask me that question. So here we go. Five C’s are – Oh my goodness. You know, you're going to kill me here because I'm on the spot here, and I'm afraid I'm going to miss one. Let me find it. I'm going to find it. So, you know, you can take them out here, do this thing. I want to do it right. Because I hate to. I usually get three out of the five and hang on a second. Okay, here we go. A classical Turning Point five C school is Christian, classical, conservative, collaborative and cost-affordable. Okay, so we are cost-affordable. I don't know if, you know, Arizona has two wonderful ways that you can fund private education.

The new ESA program, which is like a voucher program and the student tax organization, they STO so I would say 80, 85% of our students are on some type of scholarship with those two forms. So we are a very middle-class private school, which is awesome. Make it affordable to everyone. So we're Christian conservative, a very conservative pastor gave a sermon a couple of years ago that said it's time to draw the line in the sand. We have to stand up and believe what we're going to believe. And this whole coexist thing is not working in America. And they've tried that for a while. And so we stand very firm, very conservative.

Marlin Detweiler:

So, which of the five are you not? Well, you're not specifically of the five, is that is the classical?

Kris Hutson:

Correct. We're not classical.

Marlin Detweiler:

Okay. Good. Now somebody might say, well, why are we talking about that on a classical education podcast? And the answer I'll give for you is because you have an interest in bringing classical elements into your traditional Christian school.

Kris Hutson:

That is absolutely correct.

Marlin Detweiler:

Wonderful. Well, before we pursue that, I think I've said this on this podcast before, but I'll say it again here. I've often said, I wish if ever if ACSI folks asked me to speak at one of their conferences, on what elements would be best to consider to take from classical education into a traditional Christian school, I would love to answer that question. But today I want to hear where your thinking is on that.

Kris Hutson:

We just went to the Turning Point Educator Summit in West Palm Beach two weeks ago, and I think Jennifer Burns, who's been on your podcast before, I believe, mentioned that we are about not information but formation. And I am really an advocate of not just spouting out facts and having the kids regurgitate. I am really concerned about the current population of students not being able to think and reason for themselves.

So the rhetoric debate classes, the Socratic method, the reasoning, small groups asking why, why, why, throwing out questions and have them determined and not giving them the answers that the youth of today are so into their phones. And I believe Covid has really negatively impacted that, that made them even more inward, that we don't have leaders that are graduating.

Exactly what the plan is, is to give a bunch of people out there that can just follow the lead of the government, and we are not about that. I want independent thinkers when we graduate, and I think that should be the goal of every Christian school, whether classical or not. But how do we get kids to think for themselves?

Classical training, Socratic method, asking why, help them to come out of their shell, help them learn how to speak in public. You know, those basic things I think are critical for youth of today.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah. One of the phrases that we hear often is teaching critical thinking, which sounds to me like that would be a good summary of what you're saying there. Is that fair?

Kris Hutson:

Yeah. Oh yeah. The higher level Bloom's taxonomy is definitely where we're going. Analytical, creative, collaborative. Yeah.

Marlin Detweiler:

So I'm curious what you think the key elements are. You mentioned asking why, you mentioned the Socratic Method. But it seems to me there's something very significant missing. And so I'm curious what you think the critical elements are to teach students to be critical thinkers.

Kris Hutson:

You ask me what do I think is critical for that? Right now, my observation is that let's give you information and let's put it back on the test. Let's do standardized testing to just check the boxes, make the score, move on to the next thing. And when you ask – and well I came out of retirement for this job, and you know wha is my passion in this is that when students leave this place and they move on to wherever they go, whether it's the workplace where it's armed services, whether it's college, whatever career path they choose, that when they go and meet this with the left, that they will be able to not just know, well, I believe this. I believe in this and this and this, whatever that is, that the worldview is biblical and that they can not only say what they can say, why they believe it, they can defend why they believe it. And they can also defend and tear down an argument of the other worldviews that are not in line with biblical worldview, that to me is just critical for that.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah, it is critical for that. And there was a bit of a rhetorical aspect in the question. So I'm going to be a little bit more direct here. Where does the teaching of formal and informal logic as a discipline or even as part of other disciplines fall into your thinking then? How do you see that playing out?

Kris Hutson:

Well, I need to establish the foundation. Let's back up. And that being here, traditional teachers, this is a new concept for the teachers as well here. You know, so it's training for them as well. It's baby steps for us to get to this place. So yes, logic is critical. The philosophers of, that, you know, that Socrates and Aristotle and how they approach logic and the questioning system they have. So it's a slow process to get to that place.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah, I can understand that. You're trying to avoid a major disruption to the program, right? At the same time, one of the things I've said about I've said it more than 100 times publicly speaking, and that is that, I didn't understand this as an adult until I became more familiar with the precepts, so to speak, of classical Christian education.

But you've heard it said, you know, we just don't teach kids how to think anymore. I believe that is virtually synonymous with saying we don't teach formal and informal logic. And so the idea of teaching critical thinking as a foundational element in my thinking that we teach the discipline, the subject of formal logic.

What's fascinating to me is there was a biography or an autobiography. I'm not sure. Steve Martin, the comedian and, I don't know how it helped his career, but in his young adult life, he was fascinated to study logic. But I'm not sure why I said that other than I just thought that was interesting to learn because I don't know how it plays out for him.

Kris Hutson:

And I think in the traditional Christian school, as we're labeled that can move down into the elementary. And I don't think people really understand that you can start teaching these concepts very, very young. That's not for a teenager to understand logic and to figure out this, so getting that down into those elementary, rudimentary grades to where they can answer why themselves and they can logically come to a conclusion– that's critical as well.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah. Well, that's true. And in our pedagogy, we think of this stage of the logic stage as a place where we teach formal and informal logic, and it doesn't fall down into the grammar school years. But just like teaching the facts of a subject, when the subject is a more sophisticated subject, like say, economics, we don't teach economics facts much in grammar school. That would be a course that we would take later in life, maybe high school, and so there are elements of things in logic that might fall into grammar school, but the whole concept, the real, the discipline itself, taking it as a full subject. It would be tough to do at earlier years.

Kris Hutson:

Right. Trying to fit in, and again we're strapped to the structure that we have moved into. So it's okay. Where can you insert this? You know, where can you insert this? And what's required from our perspective. What should be required? But there's no room for it to be required because of the structure. So we're trying to incorporate those concepts into current classes.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah. Where do you think, what classes then would lend themselves best and most to the critical thinking and principles of formal and informal logic?

Kris Hutson:

Well, Bible class! Theology classes are great for that. Going to different worldviews out there, throwing the different philosophers out there and help them to reason, you know, what is right about this, wrong about that, absolute truth versus relativism. All of those, that's a wonderful place to make that happen.

History. I love the history concepts, you know, and why our government, why does our republic and our form of government work versus other forms. So all of I mean, it's everywhere you can put it everywhere. But those are the two that come to mind the most.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah. What you're referring to there when you think of history, I suppose is cause and effect, right?

Kris Hutson:

Yeah. Yeah. And you know why this is the greatest experiment. The great experiment, the Republic, the three forms of government, versus what has happened in history.

Marlin Detweiler:

One of the great 20th-century theologians, R.C. Sproul, who's been involved with us in a number of different ways, used to say, I think I've said this on Vox before, and he believes the greatest problems we have with theological understanding are problems of logic. So for you to mention classes about the scriptures in your first instance really resonates with how it's important in understanding and being able to think logically and clearly about the spiritual.

Kris Hutson:

Yeah, definitely. That's great.

Marlin Detweiler:

So how do you think about taking classical elements? You're talking about critical thinking. I think you mentioned rhetoric and being able to communicate well, too. How does that factor into your thinking?

Kris Hutson:

Well, again, I would refer back to today's youth and their addiction to the phone, that they would be sitting next to someone and rather text them than talk to them. And so even in walking on campuses, you know, especially prior to being here, they won't even look at you and they speak and you ask them a question and they're almost dumbfounded on how to respond.

And so the rhetoric and debate, I mean, we've made that a requirement for freshman year here. So every kid has to take that their freshman year because we want them to be able to get used to speaking out loud again to people. And then, oh my word, give your opinion. Someone might not like my opinion, you know.

And so to give them that confidence of saying, understanding, and thinking about what they're about to say and responding well, even, yes ma'am, no ma'am. Talking to instructors that coming out of the room, those types of everyday things that you and I, it was just taken for granted growing up. These current students have to be taught how to do that.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah, it's been interesting for us as we have students in certain countries that have different cultures, a number of Asian cultures tend to be more deferential. As students, they don't want to speak their opinions, and they're used to just absorbing. And it's been a challenge for us, an online school, where we have lots of international students, to get them to see the importance of interacting in a conversation and not just being a sponge soaking things up that they're learning, right, involves conversation and interaction and mutual challenge in those conversations, I couldn't agree more. It is a very important aspect that students learn the value of quality communication.

Kris Hutson:

Right, exactly. And writing. They write in emojis, and they understand that they just don't write real words and complete sentences either, you know. So the whole grammar, the fundamental language, getting the grammar and understanding all those concepts…

Marlin Detweiler:

I'm hearing they need to master language. That's why we teach Latin. One of the reasons, they need to be able to think clearly. That's why we teach logic. They need to be able to speak articulately and persuasively and look people in the eye and do those things and communicate effectively. That's why we teach rhetoric. Now we have the three pillars of content in a classical education. Maybe this is a difficult question, but why not go that way, then?

Kris Hutson:

We just might – eventually.

Marlin Detweiler:

Oh, we got you on the record now.

Kris Hutson:

A spoon a spoonful here, and a spoonful there, and you move them. You know, it's a buy-in and it's a buy-in again. You know, we're also trying to educate parents because, again, even though we're Christian parents and we still all grew up, most of us dropping your kids off, letting the school do their thing, picking them up and going home and bringing the parents into this, buy-in that you're just as responsible as I am for the education of your child. And that is not how we grew up. You know, it's foreign. So bringing them into this and helping them understand, okay, biblical worldview is critical for your child. You know, you have to, that is absolute truth. And that's where we start with everything. And so getting them in on that and when you get in the car, don't you say, “How was your day?” Make your kids tell you what happened in the day. What was a good point? What did you learn in this and have this, you know, so we are working on a parent education program as well.

Marlin Detweiler:

That is wonderful. Where do you see all this in five years?

Kris Hutson:

My hope– I started the first day of school this week. I went to government class. Was very excited when the teacher I walked in, and she was giving her presentation in the class on the first day of school, explaining Socratic reasoning and what they're going to be doing for the year; it warmed my heart.

Marlin Detweiler:

Oh wow.

Kris Hutson:

Then I walked in, and I was just walking around, and I walked into a Bible class and happened to be the seniors, and I said, okay guys, I know this is I'm relatively new. We're getting this thing off the ground. But when you graduate, this is what I want you to be able to do. It's when I just explained a little earlier in the podcast that you know what you believe, and you know why you don't believe what the other person believes, and you're going to convince the other person that what you believe is right, and then you're going to think this and reason through this.

So for me, in five years, that would have given our seventh and eighth graders– they would have been in this program and been through that program for five years. They will have that, not just the concept, but they'll be able to live and breathe that when they walk out of here. That diploma, it's not just hey, I did some academics, but I can reason with the best of them.

I can debate you, and I know why I believe what I believe. So for me, that's the culmination of why the Lord has put me in this chair.

Marlin Detweiler:

That's wonderful. Well, we at Veritas Press, we're always wanting to help schools and homeschools, regardless of how much they want to buy into a classical pedagogy. We want to help them improve themselves. That's one of the reasons I was really interested in hearing your strategy, your approach so that we can better avail ourselves to helping. And of course, we're always excited and interested, as much as we can; we're not trying to tell everybody you have to do it the way we do it. But we want to be able to help people do it the way they want to do it. That will help them. It's interesting to hear you talk that way.

Kris Hutson:

Well, I think the philosophy of the classical concept is catching on because we understand as Christians what the students don't have currently, what they're not getting because of we just kind of gone over. A lot of things have been opened up, and eyes are opened. What you provide, what you can provide for a school like mine is these are these curriculums based on these concepts that we can directly apply immediately without having to go to training in order to get to it. So I'm very excited for this, to see where this is all going.

Marlin Detweiler:

And what might you like to say to your peers within the ACSI community that you've learned as you've interacted with classical educators and Charlie Kirk's organization, Turning Point, and that sort of thing? How would you like to challenge them?

Kris Hutson:

Well, we can't be complacent. Just because you have the label of a Christian school on the outside when they come in, let's look at what the parents, what do they think they're getting? What's their expectation when they drop their child off to you? Christian music? What is a Christian education? Well, to me Christian education is a biblical worldview.

So we have to really help these students understand because they just don't believe what you say. They don't believe what you write anymore. This generation, they come from all different angles. They're complicated. For them to have a stable platform of absolute truth is critical. And how is the best way to get a child to think for themselves instead of being told?

We have to have critical thinkers like you talked about, but they have to be rationalizing based on this absolute truth of the biblical concept. If we get those aligned, we are going to have phenomenal leaders that can push this country back to where it was originally intended to be.

Marlin Detweiler:

Well, I would say that's probably what gets you up in the morning, the way I see you talking about it.

Kris Hutson:

It is exciting to me to see that we have that opportunity.

Marlin Detweiler:

Well, it seems to me you have responded to God's call by saying, I'll stand right there, I'll do it. I will flunk retirement and come back into working. And you've done that. It seems like you're doing a great job.

Kris Hutson:

We are. We have. It's been a retooling process for two years. Our team is all excited for this year. We have three pillars: academic excellence, biblical worldview, and Christ-centered community. Our goal is when the kids graduate, they're going to be lifelong learners. They're going to be leaders and servants based on biblical concepts. That's what we're about.

We have a buy-in and it's just a great atmosphere. A great culture around here right now that is almost electric. You can just feel it about how exciting it is.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah. Well, Kris, thank you for joining us today. It's been great to have you.

Kris Hutson:

It's been great. Thank you so much for allowing me to share the vision.

Marlin Detweiler:

Very good folks. Thanks again for joining us on another episode of Veritas Vox The Voice in Classical Christian Education. We hope to see you next time. Bye bye.