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Simply downloading parental control programs isn’t enough to keep your children safe on the internet anymore. How do we protect our children from harmful content and malicious predators and still give them enough space to learn how to responsibly use technology as they grow older? Chris McKenna of Protect Young Eyes is with us today to give not only technological solutions but build on them with the relational tools you need to raise honest and responsible children in the digital age.

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode for better readability.

Marlin Detweiler:

Hello again. This is Marlin Detweiler with Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. We have today with us, Chris McKenna. This is my first meeting of Chris, and so I'm looking forward to learning about what he does. But before we jump into that first welcome, Chris. It's nice to have you here.

Chris McKenna:

Thanks, Marlin. Yeah, it's going to be great! We'll get to know each other well here.

Marlin Detweiler:

So give us a little bit of background on you personally before we get into the subject matter.

Chris McKenna:

Yeah, for sure. We have a lot to talk about. So I'm a father of four, Andrea and I have been married now 23 years. My kids are ages 11, 13, 13 and 18. So we have grades five, six, seven and 12 covered at the moment. And so I share that because I think it's important for parents who might be listening to this to know that I'm not just a guy who has a lot of ideas about Internet safety because I've read a lot of books, which I have, but I've also applied everything that I'm going to share, I've applied to my own guinea pig children in some way, so I will share what I know works, because if I can trust it with my humans, you know, I want you to know the things I share have been tested in that way.

This comes out of a need that I observed. You know, this isn't my degree. I'm not an IT guy. That's a really horrible way to start a podcast about Internet safety. I know, but that's not my background. I was a CPA who for 12 years worked for Ernst and Young and process improvement and risk mitigation.That was my job.

The Lord called me into full-time ministry, so I transitioned in 2009 into a junior high ministry role and for seven years watched sixth, seventh and eighth graders start to carry the Internet with them. So I observed that phenomena take place and through the lens of risk, which is what I did for 12 years, I saw risk being put into the pockets of amazing human beings in junior high.

And that was a problem to me. So I created a Facebook group that led to a website which now is a team of you know, eight people that travel the world, do presentations all over, hundreds of them at schools, classical, faith-based, charter, private, whatever, all over and we want to just help as many awesome families like those listening to this whatever caregiver role, you have to bridge that gap between your reality and tech companies that honestly do not care about the safety, well-being and mental health of your children. So we stand in that gap.

Marlin Detweiler:

It's actually quite disturbing to think in terms of how they record our information and then deliver content to gradually progress us in direct directions. And that just aren’t good. I'm well aware of how that works with pornography, and I suspect there are many other areas. So one of the things I when I interrupted you and I'm sorry, but when I interrupted you, one of the things you talked about was that this is something you developed and it's really heartfelt because it's for your own children.

It reminded me that one of my sons has referred to him and his brothers regarding our curriculum as the test dummies. So tell us the organization I don't know what you call it. The organization or business is called Protecting Young guys. You started to introduce what it is. Take it a little bit further. Tell us what you do with Protecting Young Eyes.

Chris McKenna:

Yeah. So if you were to come to our website, we also own the domain Protecting Young Eyes. But it's Protect Young Eyes and coming to it you’ll find us either way. But what we do. So the statement that I make in all of our presentations is we understand that many times parents are often afraid of what their kids will find online.

Therefore, through research, education and advocacy, we provide amazing parents with practical tips so they can help their families be prepared, balanced and protected online. Those three outcomes are what we want from our three activities, which are research, education and advocacy. So we also have a nonprofit side. So just in fact, just getting that going in the last month or so to really focus on that advocacy side, because I've testified in front of the Senate, I over the next two weeks will have multiple hearings that I'll be testifying at all over the country: Idaho, Montana, Texas and other places. That part is very important to me because the only way you make companies the size of countries change their mind is unfortunately through laws and litigation.

So but back to your other side of this, to the families that are listening to this is right. We do a lot of research boots on the ground, really practical information so that regardless of where your technical IQ is - remember, I said I'm not a tech guy, regardless of where your technical IQ is, whether you're a parent, grandparent, aunt or uncle, we believe that we have ways of describing things that would make sense to you both relational and technical solutions. Because, Marlin, there's a balance there. There is no one toggle technical toggle software hardware that can protect our kids fully.

And we have to supplement technical solutions with relational connection, which we call digital trust. We have a whole framework around building digital trust so that we can balance those two areas of solutions to areas of tips in order to help our amazing young people use technology. And good God-honoring ways.

And, you know, we've sharpened our view of that over seven years. I've personally done over 700 presentations and I've talked to tens of thousands of families literally all over the world. And what's interesting is that regardless if you're sitting in Florida, California, Michigan or somewhere else. I even did a talk to a parent group in the German embassy in Iran, if you can believe it, through VPN. They all have the same questions!

They have the same challenges we do. So technology is non-discriminatory. It's like one of the only things that doesn't care about your political affiliation. It comes at you either way.

Marlin Detweiler:

So that's great. So let's talk first, maybe a bit more simply or the simple category of the technical solution and then I really want to hear about the relational solution; that is intriguing to me.

Chris McKenna:

Yeah. So we have what we have called five layers of digital protection. So people listening to this won’t be able to see the drawing that I'm making with my hands on the recording of this. But imagine a pyramid. So imagine maybe, you know, Giza, whatever you have in your brain is the pyramids. And imagine five horizontal sections in that pyramid that go increasing from wide at the base to narrow at the top.

And at the base of that pyramid is the digital trust framework. That's the relational side, which we'll get to in a minute. And then it's that the base because it's the most important, it's the foundation on which everything is built out now in a faith-based environment under that base, I put rock, which is the Rock of Truth prayer petition, believing God can do all things.

But here's the deal. And I have to say this in front of faith-based groups, you can't pray your porn problem away solely. But Jesus was practical flesh and blood among us too. There's a practical side to this that we pair spiritually. Yes, pray for them. Guard them in that way. But we got to do the practical stuff, too. So I just want to just put that out there as a component of this.

But those technical solutions are a good router. Hug your router. Your router is the most important digital device in your house. Why? Because it's the doorway through which the content comes. Is that doorway wide open? Is it shut? Is it filtered?

Now, I know that there are devices that don't always need Wi-Fi. They have a cellular, right? A smart device. Even tablets can sometimes connect to a cellular network. That's why that third layer. So we've got relationships. Next layer is wi-fi. That third layer in the pyramid is device level controls like software. Covenant Eyes, which I'm sure many of your listeners will have heard of.

I work there. I use it. Okay. Bark and other solutions are in that device layer that you put software on the device or use Apple's own controls like screen time or Android's own controls, which are Family Link. And so those are the technical part in the middle of those layers of protection are what I'm talking about. And there's a couple of others. But I wanted to answer your specific technical layer question there first.

Marlin Detweiler:

Good. So things like Covenant Eyes, which scan the internet and identify problems and weed them out or restrict them or part of that process. And that's part of the technical. What is it about the router? I understand it's the most important device because it's the device through which everything comes. Is that what you mean by that or is there more to it?

Chris McKenna:

Well, there are Internet ready pieces of hardware in our home that only work with a wi-fi network. Okay. So it could be– many of us have Ring for the door now or your thermostat or even in my home, the irrigation for my yard I can control with an app through the wi-fi. Smart TVs are connected to the internet, gaming devices like Xboxes and PlayStations and Switches.

Those are all connected to wi-fi. Kindles, which are tablets that have a lot of power behind them. Kindle Fire. Those are Internet-connected devices that depend solely on your home's network in order to connect to the Internet, which means that if you control what your router allows in, then you can control what content exits those Internet-ready devices.

And so that's what I'm saying is– Chromebooks are a great example, especially for families with children who depend on a Chromebook for schoolwork. It could be school-issued or you bought your own Chromebook, you can only use a Chromebook with Wi-Fi. Therefore the adequacy of that. Now there's a pairing there though to get back to what I said just a minute ago, Marlin, that Chromebook could go to a friend's house.

Well, now the router at your house doesn't matter anymore. That's why you put device-level controls on that Chromebook as Belton Suspenders to your home network is controlling it. It goes to grandma's house and does homework. It goes to someone else's house and does homework. Then you put the device layer controls on it at that, you know, Chrome operating system level so that no matter where it goes, no matter what Wi-Fi it's connected to, it has protection.

Marlin Detweiler:

The protection is at the device which travels with you. Yeah. What do you getting now back to the relational aspect. Tell me what you have seen succeed. Tell me what you have seen fail.

Chris McKenna:

Well, I have a slide that I would love to show everybody listening to this, but I'll do my best to describe it. We do a whole 90-minute presentation just on digital trust. So if you can imagine in the middle of a drawing, like if you know, the recycling symbol kind of arrows that are moving around sort of in a circle. If you imagine on the left side of that, that's right. Don't want us to be and I don't want to be on the right side of that either. So in the middle is digital trust on the left side if you imagine like a PowerPoint slide, we have spying control and that's not where I want us to be. I don't want us spying on our kids online because that doesn't teach them anything. If your child discovers that you're spying on their digital activity, all you do is actually chase them into the very things that you don't want them to do by compelling them to be a little digital ninja. Right? And we don't want that.

Marlin Detweiler:

That's there's no trust there!

Chris McKenna:

Absolutely. And then on the other side of it. Yeah, the other side of that, though, Marlin, we don't want to be apathetic and ignorant and just pay no attention to what they're doing online because these are not passive technologies. I hear sometimes people say, oh, “Technology is passive.” Really!? Because it kind of feels like Alexa in my kitchen is listening to me because now I'm getting Google search ad of the things I was talking to Andrea about last night. That's not a passive technology now. So I don't want us to be in either of those over-controlling or under-controlling. I want the Goldilocks zone in the middle where we're building digital trust, which are five phrases Copy me, Co-play, Curiosity, conversation and coaching.

Those are five phrases, behaviors, family attitudes that have, in my observations, often produced young people who learn how to use technology in a good, positive way.

Marlin Detweiler:

Maybe you can unpack each of those five a little bit. I don't want to be up all the time on this because I think a good use of it, because I think I really believe– I had a friend when I lived in Orlando. I call him a friend. He was more an acquaintance, but he was a very influential guy and a very insightful guy.

And one of the things that he was always proud to say was the most powerful force in the world, excluding God, He was a Christian. And so that was assumed. But he would say “The most powerful force in the world is a relationship.” implying that how we relate to each other was going to be a whole lot more significant than any document we might sign to hold ourselves accountable or any training that we might do or any technology that we might apply to restrict things. So tell me about that a little bit.

Chris McKenna:

Yeah, right. “Let your yes be yes and your no be no,” right? This isn't a new thought. A contract wasn't needed. Let the relationship be in your honor. So yeah, let's unpack each of those and do it really quickly. It's not going to be the 90-minute version. Copy me. Copy me is what it says. Would you want your children using their technology just like you? So where you use it, how you use it, and what you use it for.

Marlin Detweiler:

Be accountable to myself.

Chris McKenna:

Yeah, exactly right! Number two is co-play, do technology with your kids shoulder to shoulder, watch videos with them. I know you don't understand it. I know some of what they do online seems annoying to you. Even if you lose every single Nintendo match that you play against your grandson or your daughter, play it because I want them from an early age to believe that technology is a “we” activity and not just a “me” activity. That we do technology together.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah, great.

Chris McKenna:

Yeah. The third one is curiosity. It's our posture, our parenting posture. Right. Our frame, the way that we look at them when we're with tech. If all of our tech conversations are consequences, negativity and yelling, then what are the chances they'll come to us when something bad happens? I want us to be curious. Even when the news is bad, I want our first reaction to be compassion and curiosity.

Because kids don't often choose, you know, some do, but they don't always choose to make bad choices online. And you said, why. It's because these are incredibly intelligent, the most brilliant software engineers on earth, and we're putting 13-year-old brains against that? And then we get upset when they make bad choices? Like it's not even fair.

So I want our posture in front of them, even with bad news, to be curious and compassionate. The fourth part of digital trust is a conversation, talking to kids about all of the horrible things that you hope they never have to deal with online years before they need it. That includes talking to five-year-olds about pornography, which is a whole separate podcast.

And then the fifth part of that is coaching. Like a coach, We eventually want them to get this right. We want them to win, so we show them how and we treat it like a coaching opportunity and not just a controlling opportunity. I was in finance for 12 years. I get why you have controllers over your accounting department. It's so that money doesn't walk out the door. This is not that. we want to coach them into using technology in a good way. So there we go. Right.

Copy me. Co-play Curiosity, Conversation and Coaching in the 90-second version and not the 90-minute version!

Marlin Detweiler:

Very good. Where have you found your work and your message to have the most traction at the moment?

Chris McKenna:

Oh gosh, we– I mean, coming out of when most schools were locked down tight, you know, a lot of faith-based schools opened up first or never shut down, which was fabulous. Right. And so we spend probably about 80% of our time in, you know, faith-based organizations of some kind on one of my teammates, you know, kind of my right-hand guy at Protect Young Eyes.

He's an ordained pastor. And so, you know, that's really important to us because there's a difference when we can say to a group of parents or students about the fact that, I mean, God already wrote ways in which technology can be used in ways to honor Him long before it was invented. Like we have guidance in Proverbs and other places to guide us.

And so we spent a lot of time, you know, looking at good uses of technology, not just strictly faith based, but also through the lens of human dignity. There is so much that's lost through the impersonal nature of interacting through a screen all day long. We start to trade personal interaction for pixel interaction, and that does things to you.

It does things to our young people. It does things to the way they see each other. It does things to their mental well-being. I mean, Marlin, we were created in relationship. We were designed for relationship, and we are better in relationship. The that is flesh to flesh and face to face, not screen to screen. Screen-to-screen is a good augment to existing relationships. But it's not a surrogate. It's not a replacement for that. So those are some of the sort of messages and the mediums and the places that we tend to spend quite a bit of our time.

Marlin Detweiler:

That's that's incredible. One of the things that I always default to is just I always think, well, let me put it this way. Here we are in a world that we didn't see coming 20, 30, 40 years ago, cell phones became smartphones. Cell phones actually became something in that time frame. If you go back to the 40 year range, the Internet and the whole aspect of being able to research and connect and see anything almost do anything online was not considered by the masses within my lifetime and yours as well.

And we are way behind the curve in terms of keeping up with the ethics associated with it, which is exactly what you're trying to catch up with. Is that fair?

Chris McKenna:

It is, yeah.

Marlin Detweiler:

So?

Chris McKenna:

So I mean, this is what we do.

Marlin Detweiler:

Yeah. Well, that's right. So the problem is, in much of our thinking, we think, how do we get caught up to the moment not realizing how fast it was that the moment came on us and what that means for tomorrow. What will be the case in ten years? What will be the case in 20 years For our children, for our grandchildren, for our great-grandchildren?

How do you think about the incredible shifts that might be out in front of us that we have to continue to chase down? How do we get it? Is there a way to get out in front of the problem?

Chris McKenna:

Yeah, through laws and litigation. So I'm going to say some things that initially will seem antagonistic to maybe the audience and listen to the entire segment of what I’m about to say, before you judge me too harshly. Our industrialized history has proven time and time again that we always bend towards innovation long before we bend towards protection.

So what happens is we want in our amazing country, which I love with all my heart, to produce and to innovate and to grow. And I get that. But it's almost always at the expense of human beings before we figure out where we went wrong, whether it was with certain industries in our past, certain foods, paints, chemicals, nuclear, paper, whatever, we want to point it right. Pharmaceutical, whatever it is. We make the same mistakes over and over and over again. What's different today? To make that even worse, Marlin. And this is I feel like we could have a whole ‘nother podcast about this is those that are charged with creating laws that hold our industry accountable to not exacting egregious harm on the citizens of this country, like no other time in history, do not understand the industry that they are trying to hold accountable.

Marlin Detweiler:

So they're not qualified to legislate adequately.

Chris McKenna:

Well, none of them came from it. Yeah, it's a new thing. It's happened so fast. It's not like we had somebody who used to run automotive company or someone who used to be in steel or whatever it happened to be. And so we're at a disadvantage as citizens in a place where companies the size of countries in terms of GDP, we're trying to rein them in now, it's difficult.

So in my opinion, the only way to get in front of that is to create enough incentive to quit producing technologies that are harming us so quickly in the first place. That's the way it's always been. When I describe my role at Ernst and Young, my job for six years after Enron fell apart was to implement a law called Sarbanes Oxley, which prevented companies from the type of financial reporting controls that Enron and WorldCom and others were using at the time.

And you know what hasn't happened since Sarbanes-Oxley? We haven't had another Enron because they threw a bunch of rich people in jail, it made them personally liable for making bad business choices. And guess what? Everybody started to behave. So liability is the great restraint to reckless capitalism. There we go. That's my little soapbox.

Marlin Detweiler:

That's very succinct and well-put. Thank you. We're running out of time, but I want to ask you one more question. How can we better equip parents with regard to online? Feel free to promote what you do in that question. And as you answer that question, yeah.

Chris McKenna:

So we have a couple of real tactical things that parents can plug into. Marlin. We have a free research newsletter every three or so weeks we ship out something called the PYE Download. We go out, do the research, look up what's new and changing. We put it all together in a free email and send it out.

And anybody listening to this can join that by going to our website. Or you can text the word protect. If you're listening In the United States, this would work. Outside of the U.S. Go to our website and subscribe to it that way. But within the U.S., just text the word protect to the number 66866, and you will join our newsletter. It's that easy. Follow us on social media. Even though there are aspects of social media I don't love, I'm going to use it for the kingdom as well as I can. We post a lot of great content out there, little tips, and we are on the verge now, listening to this later won't make sense, so maybe it'll already be released once, you know, you might listen to this, but we are putting together a whole series of online courses that parents anywhere in the world could subscribe to. They'll be in initially two languages, English and Spanish. I lived in Mexico. It's a language that I speak and love. And so they'll be bilingual. The courses that parents can take, you know, for example, we're going to create a course for grandparents, which is how to keep up with your grandkids online basically is going to be the course.

So you know, little mini courses like that would be something that I'm sure some of you listening to this parents or grandparents might appreciate once they're released.

Marlin Detweiler:

Very good today, folks. And let me make sure you say Protect Young Eyes, not Protecting Young Eyes.

Chris McKenna:

You've got it. Yeah, that's right.

Marlin Detweiler:

Thank you. Today, we have had Chris McKenna from Protect Young Eyes. We all want to raise a godly generation and we have an interesting challenge in front of us that we didn't see coming. And we need to get out in front that we might see a godly generation restore our culture to Christ one young heart and mind at a time, as we like to say it. Thank you so much for doing this, Chris.

Chris McKenna:

Thank you, Marlin. It's been my pleasure.

Marlin Detweiler:

Folks, you have been listening to Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. Thank you.