Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify | Watch the Video

Classical Christian education is growing roots in Australia! Kon Bouzikos, President of the Australian Classical Education Society (ACES) joins us today to shares how Australian educators are adapting classical educational principles to create a distinctly Australian curriculum while embracing the trivium.

What does it take to build a classical education movement from the ground up? Learn about how ACES is tackling curriculum development, teacher training, and convincing Christian leaders of its value. Kon's passionate emphasis on love, dialogue, and humility demonstrates the heart behind this growing movement that seeks to honor both classical traditions and Australian cultural identity.

Want to learn more? Visit the ACES website at http://www.classicaleducation.org.au/

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode.

Marlin Detweiler:
Hello again and welcome to another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. Today we have with us Kon Bouzikos. I'm on the East Coast of the United States, and Kon is on the East Coast of Australia in Melbourne, correct?

Kon Bouzikos:
Correct!

Marlin Detweiler:
Amazing how technology brings us together. So we're excited to hear a bit about what Kon is up to in the world of classical education. But before we do that, I always like to hear a little bit more about our guests from a personal standpoint. So tell us a little bit about yourself, your family, your education, and your career.

Kon Bouzikos:
Thank you. First off, I’d like to thank you for the opportunity. I want to speak to yourself and to your guests. A little bit about myself. I'm a teacher. I work in high schools at the moment. I've been teaching for over 23 years. During those 23 years, I worked in primary schools. I’ve worked in high schools.

Marlin Detweiler:
Now I want to make sure we’re using the same language. When you say high schools, you mean 9th-12th grade in American grade. And primary school would be what we would say grammar school, kindergarten through sixth grade. Correct?

Kon Bouzikos:
Yeah. Correct. Yes.

Marlin Detweiler:
I know we have terminology that can be a little bit misleading with the way you use the term college, for example.

Kon Bouzikos:
Thank you. Yes. So I've worked in both educators. Now I've worked in different types of schools that we have here—public schools or state schools. We also have private schools, or some people prefer the term independent schools, which are faith-based schools, whether they be Christian or other denominations. I have worked in both settings. Currently, I'm working in a faith-based school here in Melbourne, teaching religious education and humanities.

I'm also a Sunday school teacher. I've been doing Sunday school for the last 22 years, so I really enjoy my Sunday lessons at my local parish. I've also been involved a lot with youth ministry at my local church, whether it be youth fellowships, Bible studies, just bringing the Word of God to young people.

I live in Melbourne, as you said. I'm actually of Greek background. I'm fluent in Greek and in the English language. I love running. I have done some marathons during my lifetime. Some people think I'm crazy.

I love reading books. I love spending time with people. I love cooking, walking, and just in the last five or six years, I've been involved with classical Christian education, which I'm always indebted to America for, especially. You know, I'm really involved with that in the last six years of my life.

I went to Monash University in Melbourne. I have a master's in education. I have a Bachelor of Arts. I have a diploma in theology. I'm a keen learner. I'm always learning. I never stop learning. I never stop reading. And yeah, that's a little bit about my background.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's very helpful, thank you. One of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you is because you have become the co-founder of something that is called ACES. And we'll have you talk about that a little bit in just a moment—the Australian Classical Education Society. This is for the coming year, and we realize our school year typically starts in September, and in Australia, the school year typically starts around the end of January or beginning of February because we're dealing with a different time frame for summer, for students to be off and enjoying the outdoors.

But we thought it was time. We have been offering, I think last year, about 60 classes in our evening hours, which align with your daytime hours as a way of being friendly to that. And we have increased that dramatically so that people who want to be part of our online school at Veritas Scholars Academy, a part of Veritas Press, can take live classes with us.

And because we are online, we have teachers all over the world and students all over the world. It's really a neat mix. We're seeing that grow dramatically, and the interest in it is strong. So I was interested in hearing more about what you were doing and helping you learn more about what we're doing.

I think it creates some opportunities for the homeschool community. And even schools will join us when they need a teacher for a subject they don't have. It's something we can offer. But tell us, what motivated you to start ACES? When did it start? What is it? Give us a little bit of the history.

Kon Bouzikos:
ACES began in 2021 in Melbourne. It started as a discussion between some teachers about classical education. That discussion then grew to include more people. From Melbourne, it expanded to other states. So at the moment, I’m very delighted and pleased to say to you and your listeners that ACES is made up of mostly teachers, academics, parents, people involved in churches, and ministers.

It includes people who are looking for an alternative to the current model of education here in Australia—the progressive model. Many people are disillusioned and seeking a better alternative.

That’s why we created ACES—to tell the story of classical education. Even though many of us, including myself, have not been classically trained or educated, we are on the journey. That was one of the reasons we created it—we want to offer opportunities.

I'm glad you mentioned your online courses. We are always looking for opportunities for people to learn from those who have more experience with the movement. We often look to your country because classical education has been established for a much longer time in America.

Here in Australia, the movement has probably been around for five to ten years. I hope that answers your question. We want to give people the opportunity to explore classical education.

And the other thing we want to do is create schools. I’m sure we’ll get to that in the discussion.

Marlin Detweiler:
One of the things I’ll say is that my wife, Laurie, and I have been involved with classical education since we read Wilson's book Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning, which I think is the seminal work in the resurgence of an interest in classical education. It was certainly the most important thing in changing our approach.

We then took the initiative to start the Geneva School in Orlando, Florida, and Veritas Academy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Now Veritas Scholars Academy our online school and Veritas Press. So we've been actively involved since 1992 for us. And so it's been quite a long time. And one of the things that I can tell you now, so that you can tell the people that you work with is in America, it is the fastest growing category of education, and it is the one that easily gets the best results by any form of measurement.

That I can think of. Standardized testing is one of the objective numbers and college boards and those numbers, for on average, the class we educated far exceed our public school system and they exceed virtually all of our private school systems as well. So I know that your interest comes from that. But I wanted you to know and you to have here on the record as we talk, that verification that it is proving to be a superior form of education, but it requires some definition when we as the term classical education, we will use it interchangeably with the term classical Christian education.

That's not always the case for everyone. It's true at Veritas. But tell me when you use the term classical education and don't say classical Christian education. Tell me, are you making a distinction or what is it that you mean?

Kon Bouzikos:
That’s a great question. And if you look at the title of our organization, it's Australian Classical Education Society. Well, first and foremost Marlin, when we use the term classical education and for us here it arises, it basically means the great tradition, starting with the ancient Greeks, the ancient Romans, looking at Plato, Aristotle, and we look at we look at the beginnings and how what those authors and philosophers thought education should be about.

So we begin with them. However, having said that, then we realize that the classical education movement, even that began in Greece. It took a trajectory, and it spread throughout Europe, as you know, very well. And it was part of the Christian world, and we can't deny that. And hence we get the term classical Christian education.

So we have ACES. We are open to any perspective, any position. I must say that most of us here and is in fact, I think all of us, Christians, we are all Christian Christians. So first and foremost, we would like to say that for a classical education to really reach its apex, to really flourish, for in order for the people to flourish in the streets, that we believe that it should reach the Christian lens.

It should it should reach the Christian story. However, having said that, we respect and we understand that we live in a multicultural society. That's a to me, if you're in Australia a lot, I'm sure that in America we live in a multicultural, multi-faith society, and we realize that there are people that perhaps are not Christians or may follow another denomination.

So our position is that we are open to dialog with those persons and that, as we always keep the door open, however we do not deny that we are Christians, and we believe that ultimately classical education finds its true. It's true meaning when it comes to classical Christian education. I realize that some people may disagree with what I'm saying or my hold my own, different perspective.

And we respect that. In fact, as a Christian, that I respect every person. I mean, I respect you. I just think, you know, that's, but that's our frame.

Marlin Detweiler:
Okay. Thank you. There's another aspect that something's happened that Doug Wilson's book was the real significant work. First work to come out, called Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning and aptly named because it was named after a talk that was then turned into an essay by Dorothy Sayers given at Oxford University in 1947 or 48.

And that's called the Lost Tools of Learning. Sayers articulates a very significant pedagogical model. And one of the things that's happened in America with the popularization of classical education in the late 20th and now 21st century, was that there has become a plethora quite a variety of expressions of classical education. Sayers points out that the first three of the seven liberal arts, also known as the trivium, grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric, parallel very neatly how God made children to learn in grammar school or primary school, as I think you would call it, kindergarten through sixth grade.

They're quite capable of memorizing as they love to memorize things. They drink in things. They acquire knowledge very easily, and they love it. They also need to learn to master language and, of course, master mathematics basics. So she points out that that's a wonderful time to teach Latin. That was very common in medieval times because it was a tool for mastering language that was recognized quite significantly until the early 20th century in America.

I don't know the history of Australia with regard to Latin, but it's key in our thinking of classical education. Then she points out a child becomes pert, maybe argumentative in the middle school or junior high school years, or the early secondary school years—we'll say seventh through ninth grade. They become argumentative. That's the logic stage or the dialectic stage.

And they love to argue. So she says that's the time to teach them logic, teach them to argue well. A dangerous thing to do, but nevertheless, it's teaching with the grain because that's what they want. That's what they are naturally inclined to. Then in the high school years, they start to care about how they're perceived.

And that's when she says it's time to teach rhetoric, teach an understanding, and teach their ability to express themselves. We have found that to be a model that Wilson articulates quite well, and we really believe in it. That's how Veritas pursues classical Christian education. How would it be the case for ACES and for you and your constituents? What flavor or what brand, so to speak, of classical education are you interested in promoting?

Kon Bouzikos:
Yes, we and ACES are also familiar with Sayers and the works of Douglas Wilson. So yes, we definitely agree that grammar, logic, and rhetoric—the different stages of a child's development—are areas that we need to be aware of as we seek to grow this movement.

And in fact, I'm glad you asked that question. You raised that amount. Because in some of these classical schools that are emerging in Australia, they do actually emphasize those terms—grammar, logic, and rhetoric. They do emphasize them, especially in the younger years, the primary, as you mentioned earlier. So yes, we are aware of that.

And I would say, as I said earlier, we wholeheartedly agree with the stages of the trivium and how they need to be incorporated when we're planning our lessons and creating our units of work. So we respect that. But I just want to say, we still have a lot of work to do in that area.

In terms of curriculum, I mean, in terms of encapsulating those three terms—grammar, logic, and rhetoric—into the Australian curriculum, we are working to create those opportunities. But yes, we are aware of the different strands in America. We know that there are certain people, like you said, who support Sayers and some who emphasize other aspects of the movement.

So we have an open perspective. As I said, here in Australia, we're learning. We're just learning, and we're asking questions. Sometimes, I'll be honest, we don't always have the answers here in Australia. But we're just seeking further guidance.

Marlin Detweiler:
Okay. As you pursue the initiatives through ACES, what are some of the plans that you have? Ultimately, what does success look like? If you were to move the clock forward 20 years and look back and say that was successful, what would that be?

Kon Bouzikos:
Okay. Well, 20 years from now, I hope and I pray that we can, first of all, have created schools across all the cities in Australia. That's the first thing. At the moment, not all our capital cities and not all our states in Australia have classical schools. Only some states in Australia at the moment are catching on to this classical Christian education movement.

That's the first thing. Number two, I'm hoping that we can have a curriculum, a detailed, coherent curriculum that we can share with any school in any state in Australia. So that is a mammoth task. That's what I'm hoping 20 years from now—we have been successful in creating that curriculum from kindergarten right up to year 12, which is the year before students go to university in this country.

So that's a huge task. Success for us in Australia will mean that we have conferences and seminars daily, weekly, monthly. Let me say this to you—at the moment, we do have some conferences and seminars here in Australia, but it might happen once a year, and there might be 50 people from around Australia.

Now, when someone hears the number 50, that might not sound like much, but for us, it's a huge achievement. So 20 years from now, I hope I can say that we now have 300 people attending. Hopefully, each year we can add ten more people and get to 100, then 150, even 200. But having said that, it's not just about numbers.

I also care about quality. When I leave this world, I hope that the people who come after me have the right sentiment and attitude—one of love, one of dialogue. I always mention the word love. If we can't love one another, if we can't see the image and likeness of God in the person we speak to, then we've really lost our way.

We really need to imitate our Lord. So let's start with love and dialogue. Let's also start with humility. I always say to people, "I don't know everything." I'm not afraid to admit that. So let's begin with that attitude and a willingness to learn. Right now, I've learned something just from listening to you speak and your questions.

Having people like you who can guide us is invaluable. We need leaders' conferences. Obviously, we want more schools, as I mentioned before, and we need curriculum development. Those are probably the four main goals we have.

I also want more Christian pastors to understand why we need classical Christian schools. At the moment, we haven't really convinced many—very few on my side. But I'm hopeful that in 20 years, I can say we've convinced 100 priests about why we need to embrace classical Christian education. That’s my goal. And the goal keeps growing.

Marlin Detweiler:
You talked about creating curriculum. Back in 1992, when we were getting started, and when the book had just come out a year or two before, there were virtually no available curricula that were distinctly committed to classical Christian pedagogy. But now, in America, Veritas Press is a very substantial producer of curriculum.

There are a handful of other very important curricula. Have you considered joining forces with what has already been created rather than reinventing it?

I'm glad you mentioned that. Yes, we want to learn from others and what they have done. However, I have said this to others in your country—we always want to make sure our curriculum has an Australian context and background.

Kon Bouzikos:
Even though there are a lot of similarities between America and Australia, we have to remember that at the end of the day, our curriculum must not sound too American. I say that with all due respect—I love America—but we want to ensure that our curriculum reflects the Australian experience and identity.

But I say that in a nice way. We don't see any Australian element in that curriculum. I don't like I first of you can understand that the Americans were Australian. So which is, you know, so, does that make sense? Yeah.

Marlin Detweiler:

Well, first, yeah, I'll be the first. I've never traveled in your country. And my interactions with people who are Australian are not insignificant. We had, actually, a basketball player from Melbourne, Australia, it was the center on the North Carolina State University basketball team, was roommates with one of my children. And for holidays, he came for Thanksgiving and Christmas. He routinely came to our home to celebrate our holidays with us.

And, so I got to know a little bit about that, and of course, I've had a number of interactions with Australian classical educators and innovators and that sort of thing. And so I can't say that I know much, but I do appreciate and understand that there is a difference in how one might teach history and how one might teach certain things.

I wonder if that would be as true, though, for logic and rhetoric and Latin and other things that are pretty well established that don't seem to me, but I don't know, because I don't. I'm swimming in this water, so I somebody from outside of, you know, that's pretty Americanized. But I wonder if those kinds of curricula, great books, curriculum.

You know, our omnibus curriculum is our great books curriculum, and used quite internationally. I wonder if those would have an American flair to them or if they would be somewhat ubiquitous and would cross cultural bounds pretty well.

Kon Bouzikos:
Well, I agree with your observation. I believe that will cross cultural boundaries. Yes. I believe you mentioned logic, rhetoric, grammar. Yes. I think that can be applicable in any country. Correct. But, and like you rightly said, probably the teaching of history and maybe even literature. You know, we have many Australian literary people that we can include.

But there are things that we can take away from America that we can obviously use in Australia, by all means. And you're right, the great books are, for example, the great plan that will always be part about whether you study him in Pennsylvania or whether you study him in Melbourne. Plato's Republic will always remain the plan.

As I say, the point you're making there, and you also mentioned the word pedagogies as well. Yeah. Again, that's pedagogical principles that I'm sure you have in America and in your schools will apply also in Australia as well. You know, that's the Socratic teaching, the Socratic dialog. Rhetoric teaching is a big word now that's coming out of your country, my teaching.

So we can have my teaching here in Australia, right? It's not just something that's only confined to America or some other countries. So I think tentative question. The first thing we need to do is look at what can we take from your curriculum documents that already are applicable in our country, and I'm sure there are many of them.

The next step will be, where do we need to modify adapt right now so that it might set? Yeah. And as I said, for me, that is a huge task. And I didn't say to your audience, we are all volunteers. I mean, by the way, I'm a full-time teacher. We all do this, ACES, in our weekends.

After hours, I have a 10:00 pm before because we are spending, because a lot of us work in education and a lot of us are not happy at the moment in many of the schools that we were, we want to offer something more beautiful. So we do this in our spare time, which sometimes can be a drawback.

I wish that I can give more hours to the growth of this movement. I want for that to happen. One of us is slightly for that to happen, I need to get more people on board in Australia who realize and who understand my vision, not my vision, the vision of ACES. So it's about the vision of ACES.

So now to answer your question ten minutes ago, we want to sell that vision to many Australians, first of all, so that they can get behind us. The second way behind you. We're not quite at that stage and you are neither in your country. You do have people who do get behind that, who do get behind.

You know, the classical academic tries to get behind these institutions, but not quite yet in our country. But that's beginning.

Marlin Detweiler:
Well, we are excited to be better connected with time zones and Australian organizations and movements. We would welcome more connection and more interaction there. It has been wonderful to have you on our podcast. Thank you.

Kon Bouzikos:
Thank you. It's been an honor to speak to you, and other activists. Just by saying that, I'm a big fan of the word dialog at the moment. You and I have been having a dialog, and I just love the word dialog. You know, it's great just talking and conversing and learning from each other.

And that's what I want to do more as the ACES president, and I would hope that as ACES grows, we want to have more dialog, whether it be with Americans, with Australians, or with anyone else around the world who wants to support this movement. But thank you, and may God bless yourself and the wonderful things that are happening in your country that we look to and say, well, we always say here, "Look what's happening in America."

How did they get to that stage? And I know it would be with hard work, determination, and people like yourself—visionaries, people with passion. So we need to find more of those people in our country so we can say 20 years from now that we too have a strong, solid movement. But I believe that the seeds have been sown in our country, and it will just blossom.

Marlin Detweiler:
Very good. Well, thank you for what you're doing. I'm sure it's much appreciated by many people. And folks, thank you for joining us on another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. We hope to see you next time. Thank you.