What makes Christian orthodoxy thrilling? Today we chat with Trevin Wax, author of The Thrill of Orthodoxy, about why doctrine and theology are anything but dull, and how recovering the richness of historic Christian belief can deepen our faith and draw us closer to God.

Additionally, we’ll discover how church history can help Christians stand firm when cultural winds are blowing, and why true adventure is not found in abandoning the boundaries of the Christian faith, but in exploring the depths of the faith handed down to us.

Episode Transcription

Note: This transcription may vary from the words used in the original episode.

Marlin Detweiler:
Welcome again to another episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian education. Today we have with us Trevin Wax. Trevin has become known for a book that he's written called The Thrill of Othodoxy. Trevin, welcome.

Trevin Wax:
So glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Marlin Detweiler:
Well, we're excited, so we like to start with people kind of introducing themselves. So tell us a little bit about your family, your education and your career. That'll kind of set us up for talking about this book that you've written.

Trevin Wax:
Yeah, I grew up in Middle Tennessee. And was educated at a Christian school all throughout K through 12, and then went off to Romania, did mission work in Romania for several years. I was a college student there. I met my wife there. We had our first son during that time when we were living there, came back to the United States, and wound up back in the Tennessee area where we've raised our kids.

And yeah, so it's just one of the things I love to do is be able to serve the church and the bigger body of believers throughout the country and around the world primarily through writing, but then also through the organization. I now work with the North American Mission Board. That helps start a lot of churches that is involved with compassion ministry, evangelism, resources.

We have chaplains all over across the country. It's just a great way for me to be able to pour into the body of Christ that has also poured into me for so many years.

Marlin Detweiler:
Very good. And how many children do you have?

Trevin Wax:
We have three. Oldest just got married and our youngest just became a teenager.

Marlin Detweiler:
Wonderful. Well, you're still in the thick of it. And then you get in the thick of grandchildren. And I'm sure you're looking forward to that, too.

Trevin Wax:
I am, I probably still a little ways away from that, but you never know.

Marlin Detweiler:
Veritas as a classical Christian education provider. Do you have any connections to the classical world?

Trevin Wax:
You know, I've got nieces and nephews that go to a classical school here in town, and I've spoken at chapel and done some events for them before and then I've also just been really encouraged by what I've seen across the country in the classical education movement. And one of the things that I'm excited about is a pastor friend of mine, Jimmy Scroggins, and I have written a little free book called The Education Reformation, where we're really encouraging churches to think about using the space they have during the week to start Christian schools.

A lot of these churches, I mean, there's churches that have education space, Sunday school rooms, all kinds of things that just sit empty for a lot of the week. And we're like, you know, you can start out a K through first grade, then add a grade each year, K through second, third, fourth. You can wind up with a Christian school that could have, you know, spiritual benefits and community benefits that could go for decades.

So that's one of the things I'm excited about is just fanning the flame of that movement.

Marlin Detweiler:
Very good. Well, you wrote a book called The Thrill of Orthodoxy, and I think what I'm going to do is ask you to define Orthodoxy as a starting point. I was going to make another comment before then, but I think I want to wait on that for just a moment. So unfortunately, today, I think the term orthodoxy has left the vernacular, the commonly known terms that we live with. So let's define it.

Trevin Wax:
Yeah. You know, that's a great question. And Orthodoxy is one of those words that can sound stuffy or maybe far away, like, you know, the ordinary Christian may hear that and think 16th century. But really all the word means is right belief. It's what we as Christians believe.

It's those foundational beliefs that have been true and have been built upon, believed by all Christians, pretty much everywhere, all the time. That's how I'm defining it for this particular book. Now, you do have like, you have Eastern Orthodoxy, which is not what we're talking about.

But you have like a, there is sort of capital o orthodoxy that unites all the different wings of the church. The Nicene Creed, for example, would be a good example of that. But then you also have.

That's right. You have in these denominations you have what I would say, small orthodoxies, meaning, you know, if you're a Baptist, well, you're Baptist. Orthodoxy might be a little different than, you know, like a Presbyterian orthodoxy or, you know, a methodist orthodoxy, like you have these little orthodoxies. But what I'm talking about in the book is it's kind of a Mere Christianity kind of view.

It's, hey, this is what Christian churches, all different stripes, all different kinds, this is the this is the core Trinitarian bedrock of the faith that all Christians say, “Yep, we believe that.” That's what I'm referring to when it comes to Orthodoxy. Yeah.

Marlin Detweiler:
Just to be clear about something, I have my wife and I have extensive experience in being part of a seeker church. After our children were grown, for reasons of understanding and lots of reasons. And one of the observations I would make about that particular church and seeker churches in general is that they are focused on evangelism, which is certainly a good thing, but at the expense of both discipleship and an historic understanding of the Christian faith.

Is that a motivating factor for you, having written the book?

Trevin Wax:
It's one of the motivating factors. Early on in the book, I talk about different ways that we can drift from Orthodoxy. One of them is, and, you know, and with everything that's noble about wanting to reach out and be, you know, sensitive to seekers, one element or one problem that can take place with that is that there's this tendency to want to make more palatable the Christian faith for unbelievers in a way that shaves off some of the rough edges.

That's certainly a temptation. I think well-meaning people feel that temptation. There are other ways to drift from Orthodoxy as well. I mean, you can have all the doctrines, right and yet not have any sort of feeling or expression or worship that is from those doctrines. So I think there are different ways in which we can drift from Orthodoxy.

And depending on our location and the kind of church we belong to, we've got to be aware at the different inclinations of our own hearts that would lead us to drift from Orthodoxy in one way or another.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah, that's I think that's a good word. So picking at your title for a little bit, what's so thrilling about Orthodoxy?

Trevin Wax:
Well, I knew from the very beginning I wanted to put those two words together because you don't see them often put together.

Marlin Detweiler:
It is a bit of a pause, a stark wake-up call.

Trevin Wax:
Well, people aren't going to naturally think of doctrine and think thrilling. But I you know, I'm really I've been influenced somewhat by Dorothy Sayers, the, the obviously no stranger to anyone in the classical Christian school.

Labor station, but Dorothy Sayers talks about how it's ridiculous to think of the Christian faith as dull because the drama is the, the the dogma, the doctrine, the idea that God himself would become would take on flesh and would come to redeem the world. I mean, it's an adventure. She says it staggers the imagination. And so there are people like Dorothy Sayers and G.K. Chesterton and others who I have benefited from because I feel like they help you see these basics of Christianity that you can often take for granted.

They help you see and feel it afresh. And so that your heart actually leaps at the beauty and the thrill of what the Christian faith actually teaches.

Marlin Detweiler:
How did we lose that thrill?

Trevin Wax:
I think there are multiple ways, you know, our hearts are ever prone to wander, to drift. Sometimes we can lose the thrill because of sin that clouds our vision. Sometimes we can lose the thrill because of sorrow that we experience in our lives. Other times, we can lose the thrill because we get so accustomed, so familiar to Christian truth that it doesn't rock us anymore.

One of the things that can help us lose the thrill is when we no longer share the gospel with people. Because, I mean, one of the most exciting things that you probably know this like when you're watching a movie, if you want to introduce a movie to your kids or your grandkids, sometimes you want to watch a movie you've already seen before, even know you know what's going to happen because you get to see it through their eyes like you're seeing it for the first time.

And when you when you lead someone to Jesus, it's like that too. Like suddenly it's like, oh my goodness, isn't Jesus good? Isn't this – isn't the Christian faith a treasure, you know, plumbing the depths of what it is that we believe? I do think sometimes we can lose the thrill of Orthodoxy because there are parts of Christian teaching that rub us the wrong way that we can get, you know, embarrassed by that.

Marlin Detweiler:
If I were God, I would have done this differently.

Trevin Wax:
That's right. Or our cultural despises don't like certain aspects of Christianity. And so we want to just maybe not deny. But can we at least downplay or.

Marlin Detweiler:
Pedal the tough stuff?

Trevin Wax:
That's right. And I think that helps you lose the thrill, because at the end of the day, part of the adventure of the Christian faith is standing out, being different from the world, believing things that are not going to be popular. It's part of the adventure. Without that, you don't have the drama. You don't have the adventure at all. So I think all of these are different ways that we can lose that thrill.

Marlin Detweiler:
Why is it that we have become a people in America who seem to have an allergy to theology, to doctrine, to those things that create this richness, that ultimately bring the thrill that you're talking about?

Trevin Wax:
I say there are two reasons primarily. One reason is sometimes doctrine can be taught in a way that's so dry or can be used in a way that leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. I mean, if you've ever been with someone who is I mean, just the irony of this, someone arguing about grace in a way that is not gracious. Okay, like it happens.

Marlin Detweiler:
That's a really good thing to observe. And for us to note.

Trevin Wax:
It happens. And so I think some people they may have maybe they started to get their feet wet a little bit in studying theology and doctrine, and they ran into people who just were, you know, just terrible representatives of the kind of theology that they were putting forward. So that's one reason, I think.

But the bigger reason than that is, I think a lot of people don't see theology as practical. And we live in a world where everything has to be practical. Right? Like Watts, don't just give me some kind of theological truths about who God is on a Sunday morning. Tell me what I need to know for Monday so I can do better in my job.

I can be a better parent, or I can have this or that. And because we are naturally as Americans wanting, you know, we're drawn to whatever is immediately practical. If there's something that doesn't feel practical in the moment, we tend to not have as much patience for it. We tend to not see the reason for it. And I think it's one of the reasons that we hesitate when it comes to theological studies.

We don't see just how relevant it actually is for our entire life.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. Is some of that not recognizing the value of being in contrast to doing?

Trevin Wax:
Yes, I think so, because I think what you mean by that is we are prone to do like that's like, tell me what to do.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. The American spirit certainly promotes that. And we're inclined to sometimes think that that's what Christianity is about as well.

Trevin Wax:
And of course, there's truth in that, because –

Marlin Detweiler:
I'm not despising doing.

Trevin Wax:
Absolutely.

Marlin Detweiler:
I'm putting a question relative to being, because I don't think we value being adequately.

Trevin Wax:
And what we do should come out of who we are. Yeah. And at the end of the day, knowing who we are in Christ, knowing who God is, knowing what he is like, knowing what he has called us to, that's going to influence our doing, for sure. But it's we've got to have that bigger base.

And at the end of the day, though, I'll give you one other reason. I said, I give you two. I think there's one other one. We tend to be self-focused and a lot of theology. Theology is a study of God. It draws us out of ourselves. Ultimately, though, that's what we were made for, is to be drawn out of ourselves in the worship and honoring the glory of God.

So I do think that's another reason, is we tend to just want to think about what's immediately practical to me as God is here inviting us to know him, to love him, to enjoy him.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah. “What's the right thing for me to do with this?” Is a bit of an unfortunate perversion of things that need to be included. In addition to that, we don't exclude that, but we have other things that are more that are quite important too.

Trevin Wax:
That's right.

Marlin Detweiler:
There were a couple of things I saw noted in a description of the book, which I have not had the chance to read. And so there may be some things that you really want to say. Here's some real strong points that come out of the book, too. But here's a quote. Heresies are always actually narrower than Orthodoxy. Obviously, heresies are false beliefs about Christianity. But what do you mean by that?

Trevin Wax:
I think a lot of times in our day, people think of heresies or they think of heterodox teaching, teaching that's not exactly orthodox. They think of it as broadening things, broadening the church, you know, and broadening the scope of salvation or whatnot. We're just always making we want to be bigger. Orthodoxy is to confining. It's too narrow, it's too cramped.

And what I'm doing in there's a whole chapter devoted to this about heresy and narrowness. I'm really I'm pulling from G.K. Chesterton and trying to do this in a different century. What he did in his classic book called Orthodoxy, that I have an annotated guide to as well. That's wonderful.

Marlin Detweiler:
Well, let me just note it for the listener. The book is called The Thrill of Orthodoxy, and you have an annotated guide that can be secured as well as a learning exercise.

Trevin Wax:
To Chesterton's Orthodoxy. So there's two it's two books. So Chesterton's classic book orthodoxy, I have an annotated guide to that, with some chapter summaries and annotations at the bottom. And the thrill of Orthodoxy is me doing my best Chesterton impersonation, I guess, but trying to demonstrate. One of the things I love that Chesterton points out is that heresies cast themselves as if they're broader, but they're actually more narrow. Think about all of the different ways in which the early church had to say. Jesus is both fully God and fully man. All the heresies were wanting to emphasize one to the exclusion or diminishment of the other.

Marlin Detweiler:
Interesting observation.

Trevin Wax:
They were narrower.

Marlin Detweiler:
So give us an example of that. One of the things, of course, that it was the church councils that dealt with those. And it's amazing when you look at the purpose of a church council, how narrow its focus really was, even though it was an extensive meeting of the unified church to discuss it.

Trevin Wax:
That's right. The church councils were doing their best to not shrink Jesus. That was the main reason like you had some groups that were saying that Jesus only appeared to be a man, but was actually God, but didn't actually take on human flesh. You had other people that said, oh no, Jesus was the Spirit of God in the body of a man, right?

But that, you know, almost as if his soul is divine, but his body is human. You had others that said, no, Jesus actually is, you know, divine in some sense. But he's lesser than the father, and he's still he's the first created being. And so you've got Jesus there. You've got some that said, Jesus is, you know, adopted by God and becomes divine later on in his life.

You had all these different ways that they were going about it in the early church, insisted with language very precise, wanted to say, no, we will not shrink what the biblical testimony teaches about who Jesus is. He is fully God and fully man in all of the mystery that entails. That's what they were centering on.

I think today, some people want to say, hey, you know, it's to give an example, some people want to say, well, you know, I know Christians have always said Jesus is the only way to God, but surely, you know, we can you know, there are other ways that Christianity isn't quite as narrow as that. Well, once you do that, you actually make Jesus less inclusive rather than more inclusive, because then the call to salvation doesn't apply to everybody.

The call to repentance doesn't apply to everyone. The great commission of going to all the nations no longer really matters if there's no evangelistic fervor. So even though this idea of, oh, we're going to be broader than Christianity by saying there are multiple ways to God at that moment, you've shrunk Jesus again, and he's only your personal way to God rather than the ultimate way to God.

So these are just ways in which these ways we depart from Orthodoxy actually wind up shrinking Jesus rather than giving us a bigger Jesus as they sometimes market themselves.

Marlin Detweiler:
Yeah, this is kind of related. But there's another quote that I picked up on. I'd like you to comment on: “False teaching like you just described ultimately proves bland and boring.”

Trevin Wax:
Yes, because the wounds of signing, just like the rest of the world, the explosiveness. To give an example of back to this, this picture of Jesus being the only way, the exclusivity of Christ. What you have in the, the, the New Testament is this explosive bringing together of Jesus all the exclusive claims Jesus makes about himself with the inclusive call for everyone, everywhere to repent and trust in him.

So you have this exclusive claim of Jesus, I'm the Son of God. I'm the way to God. And then you have, you know, Peter saying, there's no way, no name under heaven, no name on earth, under heaven by which people can be saved. So you have that exclusive claim, but then you have the inclusive call. Go out to everyone, everywhere.

You know, there's no one that is off limits. There's no one beyond the reach of God. There's no one beyond his grace that you can't call to bring in. In the first centuries of the church, the Roman Empire would have been fine with a little exclusive sect over here about Jesus, you know, because they were like, oh, you know, everybody, every all these different ethnic groups have their own little tribal deities.

That's fine. They all think they're right. That's okay. What the Roman Empire couldn't take was the exclusive claim connected to the inclusive call, because once Christians were going in, you know, in evangelizing Romans and pagans and saying, no, this is for everybody. It's not just for the little Jewish sect over here once that happened.

That's what put so many Christians in the crosshairs of the Roman Empire. That is the earthquake that brought down the ancient Roman religions. Yeah. So that's the excitement putting it together.

Marlin Detweiler:
That is fascinating to consider because it is not intuitively understood that false teaching is bland and boring.

Trevin Wax:
That's right.

Marlin Detweiler:
There's another statement. Orthodoxy is where true adventure can be found. What do you mean by that?

Trevin Wax:
I think sometimes we have the impression that when you push against what the church has taught, that's really you know, we're like this because we're Americans. I mean, we just celebrated the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution. There's a revolutionary nature in our DNA, right? And so we like to push against constraints. We like to push against authority.

I think some people think the real adventure of the Christian life would be pressing up against the boundaries of what the Christian church has taught. That's really where the excitement and the adventure is. Whereas I want to say no, Christianity itself is revolutionary. The real adventure is orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is the rebellion against the world. Orthodoxy is the revolutionary teaching that has transformed the world for the last 2000 years.

And so that's why I say, don't think you have to somehow press against what the church has taught in order to, you know what the church understands the Bible to be teaching in order to be adventurous when it comes to the theology, no stay where Orthodoxy is because that's where the adventure is. Yeah.

Marlin Detweiler:
I mentioned the church that we were a part of for a bit and was given the opportunity in front of the pastor, and it was a large church, 20,000 people in attendance on a weekend over the course of all the campuses. And the senior pastor and I and others were together in a small group. They asked me to teach, and I thought, well, what will I teach that's most meaningful?

I'm not going to simply walk in the direction that everybody is walking. I think we're up for a challenge here. And so I taught on the church councils, the five main ones, and went through them. And what was interesting to me was that there seemed to be little appetite. Might have been the teacher; I can't be sure of that. But there seemed to be little appetite for an historic understanding.

I think we have eaten dessert so often we've forgotten the taste of steak.

Trevin Wax:
You know, I think that can happen not just with teaching about church history, but if we're not careful, it can happen with some of the harder portions of Scripture. That are difficult to understand. You know, we can just lose the patience for some of the difficult aspects of the Bible.

And I don't have any problem saying there are aspects of scriptural teaching and even understanding of theology and church history that are challenging. Sometimes I think we want to tell people the Bible is really an easy book to get people into it. And certainly it's simple enough that a child can understand the overall message of salvation that is taught in the Bible.

But the Bible is very complex and very complicated, and part of the adventure is in studying it for a lifetime and never coming to the end of it.

Marlin Detweiler:
The beauty is that it's that both are true.

Trevin Wax:
That's right. That's absolutely right. And so I want people, when they do Bible study to feel a bit of the reward and the payoff of knowing, hey, I'm doing something that's not always easy, but that is worthwhile. And that, you know, I want to get to know God through this book.

Marlin Detweiler:
What was it about the topic that caused you to take the jump of writing such a book?

Trevin Wax:
Well, I've always loved church history. I've always loved the scriptures. I've been a theology nerd for a long time. But at the end of the day, I thought, you know, every generation needs its reminder that doctrine matters, that what we believe about God and what God says about ourselves and what our mission is in the world matters.

And I wanted to write a book that would whet the appetite and maybe energize, re-energize longtime Christians that maybe have, you know, not dug into the depths and riches of theology and new Christians to say, hey, this is a castle. Orthodoxy is like a castle waiting to be explored. Don't spend all your time in just this little broom closet.

There are passageways and there are rooms, and there are arches, and there are treasure chests and all kinds of things in this castle. Get to exploring. And I just feel like every generation needs that reminder. And I wanted to be one to help remind our generation of that.

Marlin Detweiler:
So that really leads well to my last question, or at least my last written question. There may be others, depending on how you answer that. What will make this book a success in your mind?

Trevin Wax:
You know, I think I'll be pleased if Christians are fortified in their faith, encouraged to go deeper in their faith and recapture some of that love in that fervor they have for their relationship with Jesus. At the end of the day, we don't do theology for theology's sake. We do theology because we want to know God. It's the study of God.

What grander subject could there be to study? So ultimately, all of theology is in service of knowing God and honoring him. And, you know, Jesus Christ asked his disciples, who do you say that I am? All of Christian theology is an answer to that question. We never come to the end of the answer to that question.

And to me it'll be the book is a success if it leads people deeper into the riches of the Christian faith.

Marlin Detweiler:
What do you see as the role in a Christian's life of knowing the history of the church, from the closing of the canon to the present? I don't understand, or I don't know how. The church in Brazil, which is growing like wildfire now, or the church in China, which has had long-standing fast growth in other countries too.

I could mention South Korea and India. There are lots of places where it's growing fast in the United States. I don't know how they approach this, but in America it does not seem that understanding church history, understanding things from the closing of the canon until Billy Graham showed up tend to be valued. Do you see that as part of the problem? And part of the solution is knowing and learning?

Trevin Wax:
I do think that was you know, if I look back over my overall, you know, my overall experience in American churches, I do think a blind spot when it comes to history has certainly been there, just hasn't been seen as necessary or serious. But I do think that's changing somewhat. I notice among young people a very strong interest in the history of the church. I think it's part of a desire for rootedness.

Marlin Detweiler:
To be connected to the past is an intuitive need.

Trevin Wax:
That's exactly right. And I think especially when you're when you're having to uphold aspects of Christian teaching or aspects of Christianity's moral vision, our sexual ethic, for example, if you're having to uphold that in a world that's pretty hostile to that, well, the best way to stand strong when the cultural winds are blowing is to have the roots of that tree go down deep.

And so I think there's a felt need now among some young people, among pastors as well, and others to say, you know, we need to be connected. We need to remind ourselves of that. We stand on the shoulders of people that have come before us, and that we are we stand in a long line of four fathers and mothers, and of the faith that have passed on the gospel to us.

And, Lord willing, prayerfully, we want to pass on the same gospel, untainted, unchanged, to the generation that comes behind us.

Marlin Detweiler:
On that, we'll end. That's a great place to stop. Thank you so much for joining us.

Trevin Wax:
Well, thank you for having me.

Marlin Detweiler:
And folks, thank you for joining us on this episode of Veritas Vox, the voice of classical Christian Education. We look forward to seeing you next time.